Imperial Diet

[SwordsMaster]

The fourth elector of Bavaria rises again.

While I understand the concern of the lord that spoke before me, I find that his edict is very vaguely formulated.

I wish to support it in the following form:

If I may, elector, define clearer objectives, I propose:

Edict 1.25

All steps must be taken for the Holy Empire to established trade rights with the nations of Byzantium, Poland, Russia, England, Spain, The papal States Portugal and Sicily within 10 years.


All these nations are "neighbours of our neighbours" or, in Poland's case our neighbours that we have no intention of fighting in the immediate future.


EDIT: Renamed to avoid confusion.

[Grande Orso]

This time the Kurfurst of Swabia rises quickly and is more direct in addressing the comments of the previous elector

Noble sir, I am afraid that I have explained myself poorly on this matter. While I fully support the creation of trade treaties with all the countries that you have listed in your proposed amendment, this is not what I intended in my proposed Edict 1.24.
My proposal regarded the hiring of a number of merchants during the Chancellor's term which, under the control of our wise Emperor, would be able to trade resources in name of the Empire. A number of these merchants, especially if they were accustomed to the matters of trade, could significantly boost the Empire's resources and allow us to support the expansionary measures previously proposed.

Perhaps, may I suggest to you to more formally propose your edict under the label of Edict 1.25?

I welcome any further comments on the wording of my proposed measure, and I apologize for the confusion.

Sits down, embarassed by the confusion he has created

[TinCow]

*Maximillian Mansdorf shakes his head slowly at the Fourth Elector of Swabia*

Our armies would have to lower themselves to the barbaric practices of sacking cities?! Sir, have you ever even spent a day in an army? Honor and glory may be wonderful things, to be sure, but they are never enough to feed 5,000 hungry men. We can expect chivalrous and selfless behavior from noble generals, but what of the common man-at-arms and the levies that make up the vast majority of our forces?

You must understand reality, sir, and reality is that men rarely take up arms when their lives are not threatened unless there is the possibility of substantial benefit for themselves and their families. Yes, we pay our soldiers, but it is a pittance in comparison to what they expect to reap from their fallen enemies. Certainly it is wrong to massacre good Christian civilians for no reason, but what harm is there in appropriating the wealth of an enemy city on its conquest? To consistently deny the sack of enemy cities is to court desertion and mutiny.

Calling the practice of sacking barbaric is a direct insult to many of the noble men who stand with us in this very room! That includes our glorious Kaiser Heinrich. I know you do not need a history lesson, but it has been less than 10 years since the Kaiser sacked the Saxon lands of the previous Duke of Bavaria for fomenting rebellion. Are you calling the Kaiser a barbarian for this act?

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and adresses the crowd of Electors,

" Mein Kaiser, Mighty Lords of Germany. From my part i would like to apologize my harsh joke. I have nothing but admiration towards my fellow electors and im sorry about my rude manners. I have spent my life mostly on battlefields and learned from there that its better to speak shortly and say what you mean rather then make long speeches,when there are lot better men for such.
I would like to thank the second elector of Austria for seconding my proposal about sieging Metz and would beg for you gentlemen for someone to second edict 1.23 again so it can be voted on.
After inspecting the forces in Staufen i have came to conclusion that even if we leave some archers as garrison in Staufen, if my Lord and Prince, Henry would lead our men in the siege, im positive that we could starve out Metz in few years and if the garrison would try to sally he could defeat them without large problems
About the sacking of enemy cities. I think that its the pay of the soldier to take their share if the enemy is foolish enough to close their gates before the troops of Kaiser."

Fifth Elector of Swabia

[Grande Orso]

Stands, slightly blushing

I would like to apologize to the Diet for taking up so much of its time in historical discussions, but, if I may, I would like to address the claims made by Herr Mansdorf regarding my previous statement to this assembly.

*clears throat* Honoured sir, you are indeed correct in saying that I have not spent a single day in a proper army. These lands have seen much bloodshed and tumult in these years, and I, being of young age, have rarely left my hometown of Staufen. I have already expressed my desire and willingness to fight for the Holy Crown, and have put my own life at the service of my lord, Prinz Henry.

But while I may be inexperienced, I do not think that the systematic sacking of goods and murdering of civilians is the only thing that a person can expect after leading an army to victory. You say that we can only expect generals to be capable of pious and chivalrous acts. I say that people are led by example, and armies are inspired by their own leaders.

While our interests most certainly conflict with most of our neighbors, we must not forget that no matter what language is spoken on the streets of the cities we will march into for the glory of the Emperor, the people inhabiting them are going to be fellow Christians. If we are to improve our relations with the Holy Father in Rome, I think you will perhaps agree that murdering Catholics is not the wisest course of action. I am most willing to accept the practice of systematic sacking of the wealth of those who do not believe in the true God, but these vile people do not live within the reach of our empire for now, and they are not a concern.

And most importantly, I would like to apologize to all those who feel insulted by my comments in this room, including our Kaiser Henrich if he felt I intentionally offended him with my statement. But, while young of age, I am aware of the history of our glorious kingdom, and I would hardly compare the plundering of the Bavarian estates of Otto von Nordheim, former Duke of Bavaria, to the destruction of the wealth accumulated in a city by Christian hands. The former Bavarian Herzog, as you very well know, had plotted to murder our noble Emperor, and his estates had decided to aid him in his unholy plan, and our Kaiser's retaliation was more than justified.

I would like to conclude, if I may, that our Emperor has proven himself to be a great upholder of the Christian faith and a chivalrous leader, and I hope that everybody in this room may aspire to become a tenth of the man our Kaiser has shown himself to be.

Thank you

*Sits*

[flyd]

The Second Elector of Franconia takes the floor.

Although much has been discussed in this session of the Diet so far, I fear we lack direction. So far, little has been proposed other than expansion in many directions, and there has been much squabbling over settlement allocations and legal issues. It is true that we need to bring some of the surrounding independent states under Imperial influence before our rivals do, but we must begin to plan beyond that.

We are in a bit of a tricky position. We are surrounded by rivals on all sides. When we expand, we will come into contact with more of them, and our armies will be spread thin after conquest. I urge the Kaiser to leave no border with a major power undefended, lest they take the opportunity to grab some land. I would like to take a moment to discuss our potential rivals.

In the west we have France. Currently, Burgundy (Metz, Dijon) forms a buffer between us and France, but it is a very weak buffer. I believe that France could overrun them without great difficulty, unless they are engaged elsewhere. If we were to capture Metz instead, we would be abandoning the Rhine as a defensive frontier, and we would come into contact, and potentially conflict, with France. However, we would also move the border away from our capital at Frankfurt, and also Staufen, which would put those settlements in a safer position. This has to be considered very carefully. The best thing that could happen is that the French get into a conflict with the Normans, who have become a significant power after taking England. We should develop good relations, possibly even an alliance, with England, as a balance against France.

In Italy, the current peace seems very unstable. We have the potential to come into conflict with both Milan and Venice. It is imperative that we get into a conflict with only one of them, when the times comes. Venice may look to expand to the east, and may come into conflict with Hungary or even the Greeks. Conflict with Milan seems more likely, especially since it is supposed to be our land anyway. We should therefore look to establish good relations with Venice.

In the east we have Hungary and Poland. We already border Hungary. In fact, their capital is very close to Vienna. Vienna must remain well defended. I believe the Hungarians will take advantage of any perceived weakness. Poland is further away, and there are buffers between us, such as Bohemia and others. These should be brought under Imperial control, but that is not urgent. An important thing about Poland is that it is a potential enemy of Hungary, which is why we should develop good relations with them.

In the north, there is Denmark. If we capture Hamburg, we will have a perfectly positioned castle to keep them confined to the Jutland peninsula. For that reason, I do not see them as a great threat.

These are some things to consider. I will not propose any new edicts, as there are very many edicts already, and some of them already deal with the relevant issues. Edict 1.3 deals with the north, establishing a good defensive position against Denmark. Edict 1.4 establishes good relations with Venice, while Edict 1.17 forbids Milan as a friend. Edict 1.6 provides for surveillance against Hungary, while Edict 1.19 establishes good relations with Poland. Edict 1.25 mentions good relations with England and Poland, and other non-adversary countries. All of these Edicts are consistent with the arguments I made above.

[DMu]

Daily Vote from a portion of Austria:

Edict 1.22: 504 vs 777: Nein
Edict 1.23: 877 vs 0: Nein
Edict 1.24: 712 vs. 200: Ja: seconded.
Edict 1.25: 213 vs. 9: Ja: seconded.

[pevergreen]

Friends, I am unable to comprehend what the Swabian Elector means, I have been forced Lothar is smacked on the back of the head by Conrad uhh...decided to retire from this session of the Diet until voting commences.

Thank you.