Imperial Diet

[AussieGiant]

Standing rather abruptly the 2nd Elector begins

Well I'm more than happy to take that challenge Mandorf!!

I second Edicts 4.1, 4.2 and of course 4.3

It not so much a matter of faith but of reality.

Being excommunicated WILL allow other nations to use Crusades against us.

Considering our military is under staffed and under developed we must consolidate and we can't do that defending against the entire Christian world.

[lilirishman1986]

Our empire must deal with the strongest threats to our borders and currently Milan is a toothless tiger. I second

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

edict 4.4

as we have more pressing matters on our mind and borders.

In regards to our other enemies a defensive war is preferred until we have rebuilt our forces.

[lilirishman1986]

*edit* Second edicit 4.4

[Jalf]

I second edicts 4.1, 4.2 and 4.4!
4.3, however, I can not support. We may have enough enemies to last a lifetime, but paying the pope for backstabbing us again and again is only going to show our weakness. If the word spreads that we're bribing our enemies to leave us alone, we'll soon have France and Denmark presenting some gigantic bills as well. And I don't even want to imagine how much Poland will charge to leave us... No, we can not afford to show our weaknesses like this.

While there can be little doubt that the Pope is trying to put us out of business, he nevertheless has to play by the rules. I think it is more than likely that equal warnings have been issued to Venice and Milan. So perhaps we should simply look to our defenses and wait. If they attack, they may be the ones who are excommunicated. And then.....
The elector looks around for a moment
Well, I can see you're with me. It doesn't take much imagination to see what it would mean for us if you enemies were excommunicated...

[Jalf]

Ah, and one more thing. It is about time I put some action behind my earlier suggestion. I hereby propose the following edict:

Edict 4.7: The Reich will hire 500 of the most skilled and well equipped mercenary soldiers available in our lands to reinforce our faltering armies.

With such a boost to our military might, we should be able to defend our lands until we can get some of our militiamen and peasants replaced with proper soldiers of the Empire.

[lilirishman1986]

in regards to Edict 4.7 we should only support the recruitment of mercenary troops at the utmost need by the commanders in the field. That money used for mercenaries might be better used to build our infrastructure so that we may create a stronger professional standing army rather than a temporary stopgap.

[Jalf]

Hah, may I remind you we just suffered a defeat? One of our cities is under siege, and enemy armies are everywhere around us? No, I think we need a temporary stopgap more than anything! given a few years, our infrastructure will be in very good shape indeed, and we will be able to recruit professional soldiers ourselves. But you try asking Poland to come back in 8 years... We can't afford to sit back and wait for that. We need troops NOW!

Especially given our standing with the Pope, we must expect more encounters with the nations that follow him. Again, these will not kindly wait while we build our cities and prepare a decade-long campaign to recruit decent troops on our own.

[TinCow]

I fully support the motive of the Fifth Elector of Franconia in proposing Edict 4.7, but I cannot support the Edict as it stands. It would certainly be wise to recruit mercenaries for the time being to provide a more professional core to some of our weakened armies. However, Edict 4.7 requires a very large number of mercenaries at great cost to the Reich. I would certainly support the hiring of 500 or even 1000 mercenaries if they were needed for security, but I am not convinced that the Diet is in a position to decide that they are needed. This is something that only the commanders of our armies can know and even then it is unlikely that they will be able to predict their requirements beyond the immediate battles that they are faced with.

Thus, I fully support the hiring of mercenaries, but would prefer the exact number and type to be hired were left to the Chancellor, as he is in the best position to decide on such matters. Accordingly, I will not support Edict 4.7 as it stands, but I will let it be known that I will actively oppose any Edict which attempts to limit the amount of mercenaries that the Chancellor may hire.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: I'll take that gavel back, thank you. *eyes Prinz Henry*

Electors, let me give you a quick synopsis of the facts:

- Milan makes an unprovoked attack on us.

- Venice makes an unprovoked attack on us, breaking our alliance.

- Poland makes an unprovoked attack on us, breaking our alliance.

- Pope Gregory and his large army are deep in Imperial territory, camped outside my current location.

- Pope Gregory threatens us with excommunication if we do not abide by his commands.

Now, I may be getting old, but something isn't quite right here.

He orders us to cease hostilities with Milan and Venice in order to avoid excommunication. Fine. We will do so. We will use that time to build up our forces. We will use that time to make proper men and armies. And when that time is over, we will strike with a fury and a vengeance.

I suppose that the second half of Chancellor Sigismund's term could be used as a time for quiet consilidation and expansion of our armed forces. But good Electors, we must use this time well.

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze rises to his feet:

I fear we cannot cease hostilities against Venice. They are currently besieging Milan with a company of Pavise Crossbowmen. To succour the city, we must drive them away. Therefore, we cannot agree to Edicts 4.1 and 4.2.

Chancellor Sigismund resumes his seat.

[Warluster]

The Second Elector of Swabia rises from his seat

I throughly second edict 4.7

We need more soldiers, and if the Veneatians are beiseigeing us, then these hired soldiers can deal with them easily, especially if its just Pasive Crossbowmen, I say these Veneatians are getting desparate, and should be dealt there punishment.

The second Elector sits down

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: The Chancellor raises an important point - what actions of ours would violate the Pope's orders and result in excommunication?

I have consulted with learned scholars and men privy to the inner workings of the Vatican (ooc: asked this question in a Citadel thread today). The safe assumption would seem to be that we can sally from a besieged settlement and not be excommunicated. However, it may be risky - especially given our low Papal standing - to initiate an attack on the besiegers by a relief force. What I propose, therefore, is that if we seek to relieve a besieged city from without, we start the battle with a sally first, but place a relief army in close proximity to our besiegers, so that they will be able to reinforce the battle without violating the Pope's orders.

I should also add that it would be prudent to end our blockade of Ajaccio - I suspect this would be regarded as a hostile act and lead to our excommunication.

[Bizzair]

*The Third Elector of Austria stands, showing his newfound face

I agree to disagree. I do not stand with Edict 4.7, mercenary soldiers are far to expensive, and have no interest in claiming back what is rightfully the Riech's. Instead, we should be embracing our cities with new infastructure, to build our own armies, and only hire soldiers if absolutely neccesary.

*Hoping he has shown his new attributes to the diet, he keeps it short and sweet, and sits down.

[Ituralde]

I have to agree with your venerable deliberations. I too see the infringements of the Pope not as punishment, but as an opportunity we should not hesitate to grasp. We have been successful so far, thanks to the skill and cunning of our Chancellor Sigismund der Stoltze. But now we need to take a deep breath, before we plung onward for the final stroke.

I fully support Edicts 4.1 and 4.2. Edict 4.3 may sound like hipocrisy, but you have to keep in mind, that the Popes offer of breaking our alliance with Sicily as well as joining a Crusade against them are still being considered and our reputation will take another drop once the Pope realizes we're refusing them.
So while our wars against Milan or Venice could get us excommunicated, there's still other reasons the Pope can bring against us.

That's why I once again propose an Edict that binds our Chancellor to avoid excommunication at all cost. Nothin short of an attack by Gregory itself should lead to us being outcast. The correct numbering should be Edict 4.7 if I'm not mistaken. (moderator edit: yes, I've fixed this by editing past posts)

While I agree that merchants could give a great boost to our fighting capabilties I don't agree with the specifics of the concerned Edict. The situation of Stettin comes to mind where Fredericus could hire some mercenaries to drive of the Polish intruders and surely our depleted forces in Italy could need some more troops. The Chancellor should not be bound by some abstract figure defined in this Diet, but should also not hesitate to call on mercenaries where necessary.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I have now had a chance to review reports from our Italian provinces. I confess, I am alarmed at the situation. It is, quite frankly, a mess. We have small garrisons in our territories there and only two generals - my father and the besieged Sir Otto. Large enemy armies are marching there unopposed - Milanese, Venetians and rebels. This is disorder is understandable in the wake of our recent lightning gains, but cannot be tolerated in the longer term. The Pope may order us not to take aggressive actions against the Lombard League, but by God, we are still free to get our own House in order!

I am currently stationed in Bern and there are a large number of militia left without command in Innsbruck. I propose that I join up with that force in the passes north of Milan and then march to first relieve Sir Otto and then reinforce my father, so that together the three of us can assert Imperial authority over north Italy.

We shall make sure our settlements are well garrisoned and smash the large rebel forces that have arisen outside Bologna and Florence during the chaos. If our presence in the field causes Milan and Venice to attack us, driving themselves into excommunication, so much the better!

Electors, I propose:

Edict 4.8: Prinz Henry is to join up with a large army marching out of Innsbruck and proceed south, all the while reinforced by whatever recruits and mercenaries the Chancellor sees fit. The Prinz will reinforce Sir Otto in sallying from Milan and proceed to work with the Emperor to bring order to North Italy - crushing rebel armies, reinforcing our garrisons and inducing Milan and Venice to attack us in the field.

One other small matter, Electors. You may have noticed from my report on the capture of Dijon, that a new kind of Papal agent has made an appearance in our lands - an inquisitor. I am a firm believer in treating the Papacy with respect, but these radical inquisitors are a menace. Inquisitors are effectively rogue agents - closer to rebels than to true Papal agents. They burn good Christians left and right, regardless of the Pope's own wishes. I hastily made my exit from Dijon, but the Chancellor has bravely ventured there in my stead. Fortunately, he is bringing with him a large army which can be used to take preemptive action. I propose the following secret Charter Ammendment:

Charter Ammendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

[AussieGiant]

I second Prinz Henry's Edict 4.8

Additionally our Prinz is correct. His cunning plan to relieve Count Otto seems to be sound in theory.

BUT our blockading of the Milanese port by Admiral Dimarus and the Venetian port by Admiral Thorsten must cease immediately.

I propose Edict 4.9: Naval Blockades of Milan and Venetian ports must cease until which time excommunication is not threatened by the Pope.

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze rises to his feet with a shocked expression on his face.

Mein electors, what madness has come over you? Do you surely fear the Pope? We cannot bow to the Pope, such is madness. Firstly, the Milanese revolt against us. We go and subdue all of Lombardia and the Pope orders us not to reclaim what is rightfully ours. Next, Venice betrayed our alliance and besieged Vienna. The Pope orders us not to punish this treason. And before all this happened, the Pope order us to sever ties with our trusty allies, the Sicilians. Obeying the Pope's will, therefore, is madness.

Upon my honour, noble electors, I will restore the situation in Italy before the end of my term of office. Only do not chain me with edicts that spell disaster.

I hereby propose Edict 4.10:

Chancellors Sigismund der Stolze is to be given free reign for the rest of his turn concerning the Lombard League(Milan and Venice). If he fails to subdue them, he is to be censored by the Diet.

Sigismund der Stolze resumes his seat.

[Bizzair]

*Third Elector of Austria stands*

I once again must say something in this heated arguement, I do not agree with Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze, I second Edict 4.9, and Edict 4.8, but oppose Edict 4.10.

We must at all costs avoid being excommunicated, at least for the moment. We need to rebuild the empire, and get a roll going on, at this current state our country will sure fall being excommunicated. Then giving freedom to Milan and Venice to attack us when they feel fit.

I purpose Edit 4.11: To summarize the edicts, all wars shall try to be avoided at all costs. We shall cease battles with Milan, Venice and Poland untill the pope has recommended us otherwise, we shall only defend if neccesary, and recruit minimum ammount of mercenaries, unless needed.


*Sits down, hoping others in the diet see the Third Elector of Austria means buisness in the political aspects of The Riech.*

[TevashSzat]

As Fourth Elector of Swabia, I agree with Edict 4.1 and 4.2. but must protest Edict 4.3. Any money given to the pope could be better appropriated for training troops or hiring mercenaries against the poles, milanians, or venetians. Furthermore, should we be allowed to call a crusade, most targets would be far from us, stretching us thin and creating unncessary problems. Should Milan be excommunicated, a crusade wil certainly help our cause, but that all depends on their actions which cannot be guaranteed. Edict 4.4 is also not very wise given the rather low chance of peace with Milan and that they will probably break the ceasefire and attack us during a vunerable time elsewhere, but Edict 4.5 and 4.6 is reasonable since as Sun Tzu said, The best defence is a good offence. I partially support Edict 4.7 seeing the need for more troops, but that number of mercenaries may prove too much of a burden on the treasury. Edict 4.8 and 4.9 also gainst my approval, but I strongly oppose Edict 4.10.

[Verdizzy]

The fourth elector of Austria stands up:

Fellow electors, I think we can all agree that we have too many borders to protect and not enough resources to defend them. Instead of trying to find ways to increase our resources, I think we should focus on how we can limit our borders.

We have 4 main issues at our heels:

Venice, Milan, Poland, and the Pope.

We cannot deal with all 4 at the same time. So I ask you, which of these would be the easiest for us to create a temporary "ceasefire" with? To me i seems as it would be Milan and the Pope. Milan will agree to a ceasefire because we've basically obliterated them already, and all the Pope needs is a little money and peace to keep him happy.

While I know that we do not deserve this type of treatment from the Pope, we must use him to our favor. We're not sacrificing our dignity. Instead, we are using our cleverness to use the Pope to give us time to muster up our forces.

Finding a middle ground with Milan and the Pope effectively narrows our problems down by 50%. With half of our problems gone we can focus on Poland and Venice.

I second 4.1 and 4.3
It is necessary to narrow our borders for the time being so that we can build up our forces. A ceasefire with Milan and gaining the Popes favor back instantly cuts our problems down by half!

I also partially agree with 4.7. I do believe we could use some mercenary help but we should look at what military we have available before deciding on an exact number of units to recruit.

I also propose that any available military we have be sent as reinforcements to our besieged settlements. If 4.1 and 4.3 are passed then we should be able to move our forces temporarily away from these borders and focus them on our defense.

I hope my ramblings have made sense. Long live the Reich!

[AussieGiant]

My Lord Chancellor,

Edict 4.10,

For once...I'm speechless.

I strongly oppose 4.10

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund stands up with annoyance on his face.

O foolish Austrians! Would you have us play into our enemies' hands? Your passive edicts spell disaster, and I would fain that I was dead before the Reich witness such catastrophe. Do not think that Italy is not important. I would go as far to say that the cities of Milan, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Rome, and Bologna, are more important to the Reich that the whole of the riches of the Levant.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: The current list of proposed edicts and their first two seconders has been posted at the front of the Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1

I remind new Electors that only edicts with two seconders can be put to the vote and that you must explicitly state "I second motion 4.x" rather than just "I support motion 4.x". This also applies to Charter Ammendments - mine for dealing with inquisitors has attracted no seconders; this is a tribute to the piety of my Lords or perhaps their heat-resistance. More than two seconders are not required.

I second Edict 4.9.

[Ituralde]

Dear Chancellor Sigismund. I have already said that I appreciate the actions you have done so far. Still, I don't see why we should call for Edict 4.10 exactly. Maybe you could give us further elaborations on what your plans are to 'restore the situation' in Italy?
Surely the Milanese Duchies are already under our control. And you might also notice that most other Edicts deal with the situation in Italy just fine. I see no reason to give you free reign when it could lead to a situation that we may regret. I'd rather instruct you before-hand via Edicts. You seem to have something special in mind. Maybe you should just voice it here and then we may see whether it benefits the Reich as a whole or not.

I think my actions in Vienna have spoken clearly what I think of traitors and oath-breakers and I agree that the Venetians and Poles are nothing less. Still, we can restrain ourselves and strike at the right time, dealing our enemies even more damage. This headlong rush into excommunication will not serve us well in the long run. You say, it spells disaster however, maybe you could also elaborate about that before accusing the whole House of Austria.

I'm curious what you have to say on these matters, my dear Chancellor.

[TinCow]

Chancellor der Stolze appears to be the only one among us with the strength and will to deal with the Papal puppets. I will never bow and grovel to Gregory! Some of you seem to be so deep in his pockets that I fear your souls may already be lost. I vigorously second Edict 4.10. The Chancellor was elected on an unopposed nomination, as no one else had the balls to do what must be done. It seems that once again he stands alone as the best of us.

[Jalf]

I can not support the chansellor's edict 4.10 in its current form. I think a passive approach is exactly what we need for now. true, we will not simply follow the pope's commands blindly, but we also can not afford to be excommunicated. The consequences would be disastrous. I believe a better approach would be to see to our defenses and wait for these two countries to initiate attacks on us. With luck, this will result in their excommunication, which would give us free hands to wipe them out once and for all.

And in the worst case? Well, we'll have to fight a defensive battle, which means we'll have city walls and the advantage of superior positioning on our side. And afterwards we'll at least know exactly how far the pope's support of Venice and Milan goes.

On the other hand, a carte blanche to the Chancellor's warmongering could provoke not just the pope, but most of Europe into actively opposing us.

So I would like to propose a modified version of 4.10.
4.12: We will adopt a wait-and-see stance on the wars with Milan and Venice. We will let them strike the first blow before going on the offense. If they attack the Reich from this year onward, edict 4.10 shall apply.

Regardless of our disputes with the Pope, we are still a catholic country, and if nothing else, other European nations may take notice if the Pope permits further attacks by these two countries on us. France, England, Denmark and the other powerful nations of Europe will see a pope willfully permitting attacks on a catholic nation. That would be an eye-opener to even the blindest, most stubborn Pope-worshipper.

Also I have to inform you of a clerical error. My scribe seems to have got a few numbers mixed up. The intent of Edict 4.7 was to hire roughly 5 units of mercenaries. My scribe seems to have made the assumption that these units consist of a hundred men each and not 75. A more reasonable number would have been 300, or even 250 mercenaries. I apologize for the confusion this has caused. the scribe concerned has been duly punished.

However, I am not aware of the protocol in these matters. Can an edict, once proposed, be changed? As it stands now, I too will have to withdraw my support. Five hundred mercenaries would be a boon to our military, but also an unreasonably heavy cost.

[lilirishman1986]

In regards to the Charter Admmendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed. it is seconded by myself for the good of the Reich

in addition i would like to propose Edict 4.13: The Reich must begin the recruitment of priests until the agent pool is maxed out. These priests may gain us holy favor via conversion and the trying of heretics. Even more importantly these priests provide a long term investment if we can get one of our Fathers elected to the College of Cardinals

[ArchdukeEvan]

5th Elector of Austria

As it is seen... the wars with Milan and Veince will surly end inn Excomunitation... there for i Support Edict 4.12

also as the recrutment and payment of priests can be better used to fund the support of new troops... i Strongly dissagree with Edict 4.13

[Bizzair]

I second Edicts 4.12,

I would like to discuss Edict 4.13, maxing out the pool of priests seems a bit far, although I do agree we need more, we also need to conserve florins for military needs. Although your on to something, if we hire more priests, and build chapels and or abbeys in some settlements, I think the pope would favour us a lot more, this is a better route then flat out paying the pope.

[ArchdukeEvan]

5th Elector of Austria

ah... excuse me honorable memebers... i mere usage of the wrong vocabulary is at fault here... i do support Edict 4.12... so much so as to second Edict 4.12... thank you