Imperial Diet

[econ21]

[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

The Diet has two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by Kaiser Heinrich (GeneralHankerchief) or, in his absence, by his son, Prinz Henry (econ21).

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 1.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy Hamburg.

where 1.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the first session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

*********************************************************
Summary of Edicts proposed in Fifth Session of Diet

(Current up to post #536)

5.1 We should seek allies in England and Russia. This will force our enemies to a two front war if they dare attack us or our ally, especially as we currently do not share borders with these nations. At the same time, the alliances should only be decided if they shall pay us tribute for it, for we are the more superior nation. (aim for barely accepted)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 6th Elector of Bavaria

5.2 We need to move out all superfluous troops out from the heartland and leave just enough there to keep public order. These troops should be used to reinforce our borders and fronts.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Steward Maximillian Mandorf, Duke Leopold

5.3 The elimination of Milan
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 2nd Elector of Austria

5.4 Driving Venice back to at least Ragusa, leaving them with this region and Iraklion at the most
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Duke Otto

5.5 Attempt to make the Poles our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.6 Attempt to make Milan our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.7 The training of additional clergy to root out heresy and allow more of our cardinals into the college.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

5.8 Training of at least 2 good assassins to take care of high profile political targets
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren; Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.9 Reich will start offensive against Poland by taking Magdeburg and continuing the offensive untill either Poland sues for peace or Papal warning of excommunication is given.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.10 Holy Roman Empire suggests an alliance to Hungary.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.11:Sigismund der Brav is to be sent against the French armies invading Burgundy. After that he shall proceed to conquer France until a Papal warning is given. Sigismund alone shall be sent against the French, as the other generals are needed in Italy and Poland.
Proposed: Count Sigismund der Brav
Withdrawn

Edict 5.12: The Empire is to adopt a defensive posture in the west in an attempt to lead to the excommunication of France. When France is excommunicated, the posture is to switch to an offensive one - aiming at Rheims and then Paris.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.13: All Milanese forces remaining in Italy are to be destroyed.
Proposed: Count Otto von Kassel
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Prinz Henry

5.14 If England does not accept an Alliance on reasonable terms that favor us, we ally with Scotland instead, of course only if they are more reasonable than the English.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, Steward Maximillan Mandorf

Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.
Proposed: Steward Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Duke Leopold, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.16: The nobility of our foes are subject to assassination.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Emperor Heinrich; 5th elector of Swabia

Edict 5.17: Any aggression via the Papacy towards the Reich will result in an offensive against Rome via our field armies and the Pope will be subject to the proposed Edict 5.16.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.18 - Every city and castle of all levels in the Empire are to have built at least 1 type of Economic help in that city, in 5 years limit
Proposed: Jobst von Salza
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren

Edict 5.19: All agent training is to be suspended in order to cut back on royal spending
Proposed: 4th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Duke Leopold

Edict 5.20: All cities with access to the sea must build the needed facilities to encourage and boost commerce.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria; Count Sigismund

Edict 5.21: The Reich will contact those nations with whom we are not at war, and have no direct conflicts of interests with, and attempt to improve our diplomatic relationships, with florins if necessary.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.22 we send diplomates to gather good relations with other nations... short of the spending of Florines on them giving money to peoples when we need it is not a wise decision...
Proposed: 6th Elector of Bavaria

Edict 5.23: during the term of the next chanceler... the reich sizes Magdeburg and/or Bresalu... to provide a buffer zone and future launch sites for invasion agianst Poland
Proposed: 5th Elector of Austria
Seconded: Duke Leopold, 5th Elector of Swabia

Edict 5.24: The future Chancellor will avoid excommunication by Pope Gregory by following Papal cease and desist orders to the letter.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.25: Duke Leopold is to be put at the head of an army large enough to seize and hold Zagreb.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.26: If Venice has not fallen until the events of Edict 5.25 have passed Duke Leopold is to be given enough men to assault and conquer the city of Venice.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.27: The spy Sifridus von Swabia is to be sent to the vicinity of Budapest. If he can infiltrate the city without a considerable risk for his life he should do so. Otherwise it will suffice he is active in the countryside surrounding Budapest.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 5th Elector of Swabia, Maximillian Mandorf

Edict 5.28: To prevent Hungarian aggression against the Austrian capital Vienna it's garrison has to kept at a minimum of six units, capable of defending the city.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.29: The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.30: As a demonstration of the price of betrayal and to send a message to all of Europe that the Reich will not be defied, when the city of Venice is taken the populace will be exterminated.
Proposed: Count Otto
Seconded: Duke Leopold; 5th Elector of Swabia

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:
1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.
Proposed: Steward Maximillan Mandorf
Seconded: Count Fredericus von Hamburg; Duke Dietrich von Saxony

Charter Ammendment 5.2 (revised): Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Charter Amendment 5.3: This Amendment revises several Game Rules to keep them updated and prevent future confusions. The following Rules are revised as listed.

All lines with strikethroughs will be permanently removed.

Rule 2.4 is revised to state: 2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

Rule 3.7 is revised to state: 3.7 Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

Rule 5.2 is revised to state: Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

Rule 6.4 will have the following words deleted from it “get a permanent +1 influence and”

Rule 6.6 is revised to state: 6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.

Proposed: Steward Mandorf
Seconded: Prinz Henry; Duke Leopold
*********************************************************
Prinz Henry: Pray, silence, my Lords, for the opening of the first session of the Imperial Diet! There will be a three day period of debate for the proposing and seconding of edicts. After that, there will be a 24 hour period of voting (starting Thursday 6pm UK time).

Normally, there will be also be an election of Chancellor. However, this time, I believe my father, Kaiser Heinrich, wishes to exercise his right to assume the office. We eagerly await a speech from him, setting out his plan for the Empire, so as to frame our debates.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Thank you Prinz Henry, you are correct to assume that I will exercise my right as Emperor to personally take command of the Holy Roman Empire for a ten-year period as Chancellor. Once my reign has ended, we shall of course hold our normal elections for Chancellor, but that is a long time away. The matters to discuss are the ones of the present.

We need land, people. The four Dukes have told me so, and who am I to not satisfy my subjects? There are several independent cities around us, such as Hamburg, Florence, Stettin, and Prague, to name a few. It would be mutually beneficial to them as well as us for them to be placed under the benevolent rule of the Holy Roman Empire.

I propose (with the Diet's approval, of course) that my reign be one of expansion. Once these cities are under control, then the people of all the world shall fear the Empire once again!

Special emphasis must be placed on the capture of Florence. For too long have Rome and her Italian allies thumbed their noses at us. An unstoppable army, commanded by the Kaiser himself, conquering a city that close to Rome will make the Pope rightfully shudder at our power.

Our conquest of the independent settlements shall satisfy our financial needs, but I will be sending diplomats far and wide to secure trade rights with all the world. In addition, I have heard that our merchants wish to go into foreign lands in order to take control of resources and sell them to our people. This, if properly implanted, will significantly boost our treasury, which will be a boon for future building projects.

I shall propose a series of edicts shortly, but do not want this Diet bored to death by the sound of their Emperor's voice. Let someone else take the floor. I hereby declare this session of the Diet... open. *bangs gavel*

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Here, here! God save the Kaiser! Long live the King of the Romans!

I am delighted to support my father's plan to bring the rebellious cities around us into the warm embrace of Empire. As well as Florence, I would advocate prioritising the occupation of Hamburg. I fear if we are slow, the Danes may steal it from us. I fear no man, but the Danes have terrorised Europe for several hundred years. We must not let them expand south or the consequences may be grave for our Empire.

I would also urge the Dukes and Stewards to plan the development of their settlements for coming period. Cities should consider developing barracks to house militia at no extra cost. For Staufen, I believe key priorities are a good road network, for rapid movement of troops and merchandise, and the development of farms to foster both economic and population growth. I will set out these priorities more explicitly before this session of the Diet closes on Friday and urge the other Dukes to do likewise for their realms.

One final matter - I believe good relations with the Papacy will be crucial to our success. I propose:

Edict 1.1: The Empire will send a diplomat to Rome, to establish there a permanent residence. He will reguarly gift florins to the Papacy to allow it to carry out its holy work and, incidentally, strengthen our relations with the Vatican.

Noble lords, the Pope's word carries great weight in the Councils of Europe and indeed in the streets of our cities - we would defy him at our peril. We cannot risk being a pariah among the faithful. Indeed, such is the religious fervour of the people of Christendom, I believe we may be able to mobilise it to smite our godless enemies. The Muslims have recently taken Jerusalem. This is a dark time for the people of God. We have set ourselves the goal of restoring Jerusalem to our Holy Roman Empire. If we have the backing of the Pope, all the great Christian nations of Europe may lend support to us in this quest.

[Ignoramus]

OOC: Don't you mean edict, econ?

Swabian Elector: The Kaiser is right! Recent rebellions have weakened the Empire; we must reconquer these lost lands.

I propose that the castle of Metz be taken with all speed. We cannot allow the Burgundians' rebellion to go unpunished. I say that we march against them immediately. For, if the French were to seize this most valuable stronghold, who knows what havoc they could do? I depise the despicable French who are to despised most of all. The weak French kings cannot rule Paris itself let alone France, but we should not give these weaklings even the sniff of a chance to seize a valuable fotress on our borders.

As to whose responsibilty its capture is assigned, I say that Swabia should undertake this noble task.

Edict 1.2: The Empire shall send an army to capture the castle at Metz within 5 turns to establish a strong border with the Kingdom of France.

[Lucjan]

Dietrich turns to face the Swabian side of the diet. Don't you think you're being a bit hasty? With William currently gifting the French with headache after headache thanks to his conquest of England, I think such a swift conquest of Metz may be unmerited, and place other sections of the Empire at peril. We have strong enemies all around, and focusing too hastily on one section of the empire places us all at risk.

I've thought much of the current situation, our standing with the Pope, and what may be done to bring us all into greatter prosperity. In that respect I propose the following edicts for review by the diet.

The Danes have harried and hassled Europe over the past centuries and proven their worth as warriors and raiders, but have recently come to a stall. Their current king, I believe, has come into some amount of wisdom in his years and may be keen to alter Denmark's attitude towards the rest of the world. But there is no guarantee that he will be able to control all men of influence in his still somewhat barbaric nation. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.3 - The House of Franconia instructs the chancellor to immediately besiege Hamburg with the army north of Frankfurt. I, Dietrich von Saxony could arrive to lead the army within 4 years time (2 turns), to ensure the success of our endeavours.

I will not disappoint, nor will the results of this conquest. Hamburg will provide us with a port in the north, block the more zealous Danes from southern expansion, and, if they cannot be controlled, at the very least provide us with a forward, easily defensive position against their aggressions. It also opens us up to the possibility of later deciding what to do with the Germans of Magdeburg and Stettin. Both cities worth bringing into the Imperial fold.

To the south, we have the issue of Bologne and the Italian city states. Kaiser Heinrich is currently in Bologne but I fear he may shortly become seen as an unwanted German guest in a land of Italian houses. In that respect, I feel it would benefit us to secure, at least for now, peaceful relations with the city state of Venice. Lieing directly between Bologne and the Duchy of Austria, Venice will be pivotal in the safety of the Kaiser himself. Once we can cement our standing with Venice, Florence becomes a viable option for conquest, more properly educating the neighboring would-be Italian powers to the level of German strength and authority. Therefore.

Edict 1.4 - - The House of Franconia instructs that a diplomat be trained and sent to secure both trade rights and an alliance with the city state of Venice.

The Kaiser's safety rests on this alliance. As Venice is powerful, and were they to bring up arms against him in Bologne, the rest of Italy would surely follow suit. They may be independant of each other, but an Italian is an Italian, they all claim the same lineage and they all jealously covet the same resources, antagonize one and you antagonize his neighbor.

Not far north of Italy lie the hereditary lands of the House of Austria and the House of Bavaria. Both comprised of noble and honest men, and both gifted with strong natural resources. But in natural strength comes outside jealousy, outside defiance.

Bavaria, in particular, lies in the heart of our Holy Roman Empire , but even so is taunted with the existance of the independant Czechs in Bohemia on their border. Eventually these people will have to be taught that independance is not something that should be used as a taunting gesture towards your betters. I suggest then, that the following be done.

Edict 1.5 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to scout out the lands of Bohemia, and to infiltrate their city with our spies. If possible, its siege should begin before the next meeting of this diet.

Yet further east comes the question of Austrian protection. While the Danube provides us a strong natural defence against invaders, Vien still lies significantly outside the reach of any swift reinforcements from the Imperial heartlands. It will, therefore, be important to establish some manner of keeping a closer watch on our Hungarian neighbors in the east, so that the river becomes our watchman, and not our own limitation. We must also be careful that we are not blind to the actions of Venice or the Byzantines in the south. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.6 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to establish watchtowers along the Danube near the border with Hungary, and near Austria's southern border.

However, we must not forget that the west is also an integral part of this Empire, and I hope my earlier comments of caution have not shut the ears of the House of Swabia to my proposals. I realise the importance of Metz to the Empire and to keeping those wretched French dogs at bay, but I fear only that your proposal is not flexible enough to allow the Chancellor the potential leeway he may need to ensure a proper defence of Metz after it is taken. Being so swift in taking it before the French could instead place us in a weakened position against a large and fresh French army. Though I do support the initial cause. So I make the following edict available for the diets discussion.

Edict 1.7 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to prepare a force capable of taking Metz by the end of his term.

After Metz has been secured, we can give more thought to solidifying our border with the Italians by capturing Bern.

At the last, I must reiterate that I am all in favor of the Kaiser's proposal of expansion for the safety and strength of the Empire. But we must not forget that expanding too quickly leaves us weakened at home, and we must be careful in our early calculations, so as not to stretch ourselves thin. There are many people all around us that may not be as peaceful or trustworthy as we desire. Until we can afford to swiftly field the vast armies required to put such treacherous dogs to the sword, we must be vigilant and cautious. The conquest of Hamburg, Prague, and Metz by the end of the Kaiser's term as Chancellor and the parallel strengthening of the rest of the Empire during this process will provide us with the building blocks we'll need to turn the Empire into the leading power of Europe, and the leader of all Christendom.

Ah, and, Kaiser Heinrich, if you will, next time you see your lovely daughter, Princess Agnes, extend her my greetings and good tidings. I hope her stay in Bavaria is treating her well. Her presence in the capital is sorely missed.

Dietrich sits, and amidst the diets debate talks quietly over things with the other electors of Franconia.

[Warluster]

Swabian Elector- I propose that we should take an settlement for the good doing of our EMpire
Edict 1.8-We take Antwerp in 15 turns
OOC-Is that hwo ya do it?

[flyd]

I hereby second Edicts 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7.

I particularly urge everyone to support Edict 1.3. It is essential that the Empire gains access to the northern sea, particularly for the purposes of trade by sea.

The Second Elector of Franconia.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Ah, noble electors, it is good to see you all present and contributing! It is the people like you that make empires, and even Republics of old, so strong and powerful! I am also glad to see good healthy discussion within and between houses. It is only as a united Empire shall we be feared and revered.

I shall now present my opinions on the edicts that have been proposed so far:

Edict 1.1: Yes, I suppose that for now we can strengthen Papal relations. My son, always the diplomatic one. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: Swabia, it is indeed important that Metz be captured. However, do not place this Kaiser on such a schedule! Metz will be taken, but I would prefer a larger window in which to do it. I cannot second this edict unless it is amended.

Edict 1.3: I agree, Hamburg is of special importance. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: Do not think, Dietrich, that this Kaiser has no fight in him! While I admire your concern for my safety, the Empire does not need to align with certain nations just to ensure it. No, I do not trust Venice. They would stab us in the back as soon as the oppurtunity was presented. I would prefer a simple exchange of trade rights and a watchful eye on the Venetians. If we must align with an Italian people, I would prefer it be Sicily, or Milan. I cannot second this edict.

Edict 1.5: I believe one of our spies is currently in position to infiltrate Prague. It should be an easy job for him, and we could use the territory. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: The foreign power that Vienna needs to keep an eye on is Venice, not Poland. Nevertheless, it is always good to have an extra pair of eyes. I hereby second this edict, as well as promise to place watchtowers on the southern border of the province as well.

Edict 1.7: Ah, now this is a timeline that I can work with! Yes, hopefully Metz will have already been incorporated into the Empire by the time my term as Chancellor is up. Seconded.

Edict 1.8: A noble thought, Swabia, but Antwerp brings us too close to England and France, and that is not a war that we want to get involved in, at least not yet. I do not second this edict, but propose that we re-examine it once our current borders are closer to Antwerp.

...*cough* And yes, Dietrich, I shall pass along your message to Agnes.

[Ignoramus]

Swabian Elector: In deference to our Kaiser's comments, I shall withdraw Edict 1.2. Instead, I shall support Edict 1.7 provided that Metz is captured by a Swabian army and is to be incorporated into Swabia.

As for my humble opinion on the afore tabled edicts:

Edict 1.1: It is indeed good that we should not be hostile to His Holiness, however, why should we put ourselves under Rome's yoke? I fear that our ensuring wars may arouse the ire of His Holiness, so I advise that the diplomat is not too liberal in his gifts of Florins to the Papal coffers. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: I shall withdraw this edict.

Edict 1.3: Hamburg is an important stronghold, enabling us to protect ourselves from the Danes to the north. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: While I acknowlege your good intentions, I cannot agree to an alliance with those despicable traitors, otherwise known as Venetians. They have, by their guile, robbed and betrayed many a king or emperor, and only a dummkopf would put any faith in them.

Edict 1.5: I agree, what use are spies if they do not spy? I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: I do agree to constructing watch-towers near our borders with the Hungarians. We must not allow those Magyars plunder us as they did last century. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.7: I have been swayed by the wisdom of Dietrich von Saxony. I hereby second this edict on the condition that Swabia leads the army and after its capture Metz is annexed to the lands of Swabia.

Edict 1.8: It is, as our gut Kaiser says, a noble enterprise, however, we have not the means of dealing with the pikemen of Flanders. And to repeat what our Kaiser has said, the Kingdoms of England and France would see this actions as an act of hostility towards them.

[DMu]

This elector wishes to present himself before the diet.
Nameless Elector: Salve Caesar! Too long have the House of Austria remained silent. I wish to bring the following vital necessities to the Diet's attention.

Edict 1.9: Trade in Austria is stagnant. We must build a road network at Vienna.

Edict 1.10: We must recruit spies to infiltrate Prague. The Bohemians should be brought to heel by Turn 9.

Edict 2.11: Our Duke, Leopold would like to ask for the hand of the Imperial Princess. (aside: Thanks for the money, Duke. I live to serve.)

Edict 2.12: Austria needs protection. This elector asks that the city of Vienna be protected by recruiting more than 4 companies of young men of military age.

Dutifully submits this official document to the speaker of the diet

Document says:

Edict 1.1: Seconded
Edict 1.2: Nay
Edict 1.3: Seconded
Edict 1.4: Seconded
Edict 1.5: Seconded
Edict 1.6: Seconded
Edict 1.7: Nay
Edict 1.8: Seconded

Vale Caesar!
respectfully steps aside.

[flyd]

I believe that the Roman Style for numbering edicts dictates that all edicts in the first session of the diet should start with the number 1, that is the last two edicts proposed should be numbered 1.11 and 1.12, with the number 2 being reserved for the second session.

I do believe that Edict 2.11 is improper. Is it not the Emperor's prerogative to decide whom his own daughter will marry? Is that not the prerogative of any father? How is it proper that this should be decided by the Diet, then? I find that this Edict, proposed by Austria, constitutes a great insult to the Emperor. And I have not yet even gotten to pointing out that Leopold is the son the Emperor... by blood. Just what is going on in Austria?

[TinCow]

I, Maximillian Mandorf, Steward of Bavaria, agree with the Swabians that it is important that we establish a firm barrier to prevent French aggression against our territories. Yet we must not ignore the threats posed by other nations, most particularly the aggressive Papal lapdogs to our south. Milan, Venice, and Sicily may choose to fight amongst themselves, but it is certain that at least one, if not all of them, will turn on us in quick order.

We must maintain power in Northern Italy both for the purposes of trade and to allow us better control over the Papal throne. The Pope must learn that he cannot continue to ignore the right of the Kaiser to appoint the most worthy priests to the position! It is the proper order as prescribed by God and must be restored!

In order to ensure the influence of the Empire in Italy, we must first secure and strengthen the Alpine provinces to provide for defense against any trechery and a springboard for any attacks. You all know that Bern is the first and most vital step in such a plan.

Yet, I am not an ignorant or unreasonable man. We are all grasping at straws in all directions. Bern is an important province, but its control can perhaps be delayed for a short while until other actions have been fulfilled. I will support provisions giving Metz priority and ceding control of this territory to Swabia, but Bavaria must be compensated in return. I will vote for such provisions, but only if my Swabian colleagues will support the following edict:

Edict 1.13 - When Bern is conquered, it shall become the property of the House of Bavaria. This Edict will remain in effect until the Holy Roman Empire conquers Bern.

[DMu]

Unnamed Austrian elector:

I ask for your attention, Kaiser, Prinz, and fellow electors:

I hereby withdraw edict 1.11 (formerly 2.11) (aside: powerful forces are arrayed against you, my Duke. Be weary. I tried my best )

respectfully hand over the following official doc:
it reads

edict 1.13: seconded

[flyd]

I should point out that the laws clearly state that it is within the Emperor's power to give settlements to one of the Houses (section 5.3). I see no reason why he would need to follow Bavaria's Edict 1.13, or any suggestion from Swabia regarding Metz. Surely, requests to the Emperor can be made, but this seems far from the proper way to do it. Does no house besides Franconia respect the position of the Emperor?

[Warluster]

I second edict 1.13.

it is an nescarry Area to control, it is sonewhat a radar for Denmark if they capture, and Denmark is intent on the descruction of this grea tEmpire.

if we control it then it is a good spot for future invasions of Denmark,Poland or Antwerp. But I also propse we extend the time limit of the edict

[pevergreen]

As but a lowly member of the noble House of Austria, I do not know much about what enemies we shall encounter, therefore I propose
Edict 1.14 - Train a diplomat and send him east, to create friendly policies with Poland and Hungary.

Trade at first with these Kingdoms, until we of Austria can claim their settlements, in the name of the Empire!

I would Second Edict 1.9 but I am under the impression the Governer instructs what shall be built, not the Diet.

[OverKnight]

Third Elector of Bavaria:

Greeting Lords and Electors of the Empire, I *second edict 1.13*. This is an excellent suggestion. The Alps form a formidable natural barrier to our potential enemies to the south, the treacherous Italian merchant states.

Second Elector of Swabia, I fear you are confused, Bern would allow us to monitor the actions and defend the Alpine passes against Milan and France, not the Danes. Perhaps you're thinking of Hamburg? Your support for the edict is still gratifying.

I admit the disposition of territories is of course the domain of the Kaiser, but the integration of Bern into the Bavarian duchy would allow for geographic continuity and easy defense due to Bern's proximity to our recruitment centers.

I fear war with either the Venetians or Milan will come shortly milords. They cast covetous eyes on our Italian province. Bologna is vulnerable due to it's lack of a connection to the rest of the Empire. To think, if we wished to move troops into or out of the province we would have to ask permission, permission!, of those oily, usurious merchants! Bah! If we are to seek an alliance with one them it should be Milan, they do not straddle our lines of communications like the Doge and his ilk do.

I support edict 1.1, it is already seconded and it is a good idea. I am a Christian and a German, we need to improve our relations with Rome, they are very low at this point. If we fall too far in the Pope's disfavor it will embolden our enemies to strike, for they will not fear his disapproval. I am not saying we should bend the knee in all matters, but we should respect the power he holds.

The 3rd Elector of Swabia has proposed that we build roads in Vienna. I would go a step farther and propose:

*edict 1.14*: Roads should be present in all current provinces of the Empire by the year 1100 (20 years/10 turns)

Our armies will be needed on many fronts and we are an inland Empire. We need roads to quickly dispatch an army from one area of the Empire to another. Trade will also benefit.

I support the expansion of the Empire in general. Seizing Hamburg, in addition to Bern, Metz, and Prague is a good idea. It might antagonize the Danes, or they might turn north. We shall see. In expanding, however, we should set our sights on strong frontiers that have choke points we can defend, the Alps in the south, Hamburg and the sea to the north, and the Rhine to the west. The east, well, there is the Danube, but that is not ideal.
I hope the Kaiser will keep this in mind.

[OverKnight]

OOC: Change mine to 1.15, I was in the middle of writing when Swordsmaster's post went up. And for some wonky reason I can't type in bold so I had to substitute asterisks, my apologies. It might be because I'm using the web browser at work.

[pevergreen]

My dear Bavarian friend, I think you are mistaken with your eagerness to ask Milan for an alliance. Milan and Venice are both alike, with qualities akin to each other. For if we take Florence, as we should, we will have two borders with Milan, and as they seem have more cities in northern italy than Venice, it would seem Venice is the weaker city state in Northern Italy.
In realisation of Milan's power to extend through the weak and divided France, I put foward another Edict to the Diet.

Edict 1.16 Recruit and send a spy to watch over Milan's progression.

This will allow us to judge when they are aggrivating their neighbours and give us time to strike.
(OOC: I really hate Milan)

[OverKnight]

Third Elector of Bavaria:

I realize a choice between Milan and Venice is like choosing between being drawn and quartered or the rack, but it is a choice, in the short term, we must make. Belive me, I wish the fires of Heaven would destroy them both.

If we *have* to ally with one, Milan, due to geography, is slightly less odious.

[Ituralde]

With an audible cough Conrad von Schüsselen rises from his seat in the Imperial Diet. His stern gaze encompasses the assembled nobles before he raises his voice to speak. He speaks not loudly and with a rough edge to his voice but still clear enough to be understood by anyone in the Diet.

Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow electors!

As you all know I recently followed our beloved Emperor into the pit of the lion that is Appenin peninsula nowadays. Those Langobard dogs think they can do as they like and have already gained acceptance by the wiry fool posing as god's representative in Rome. The Duchy of Milan the 'free' City of Venice and even the marauding Norman invaders of Sicily all cower behind their alleged faith to gain protection from the Pope who suddenly disapproves of Catholics fighting against each other now that he sees his powers in Italy dwindling and his chances to increase the size of God's kingdom on earth slimming.

I'm surprised no other elector has picked up on wise Emperor Heinrichs advice to expand in Italy also. It is of utmost importance that we do not tolerate the insolence by the Italian Duchies declaring their 'independence'. All of Italy will have to be brought back into the fold in due time, but for now I propose the following actions:

Edict 1.17: I firmly believe that the tentative powers the Duke of Milan has tried to establish over some Italian Cities can not be supported by the Reich. All diplomatic incursion with those money-loving dogs should be kept to a minimum. No requests for Trade rights, Maps or any other transactions shall meet our approval!

*cough* *cough* The elector raises a silk handkerchief to his mouth to stop a coughing fit that has overcome him as he has gotten more and more enraged during his speech against Milan. Small specks of blood can be seen as he wipes them from his mouth and puts the handkerchief back up his sleeve.
Once again composed and calm, he continues.

Edict 1.18: As a demonstration of our strength in Italy we should show them our power and seize the city of Florence. Its riches would make a fine addition to the Imperial coffers and show the Italians that the Empire will not sit by idly while the try to gain supremacy. Florence is as yet unalligned and will not be protected by the Pope, making it an ideal target.
As an afterthought, I'd like Florence to be assigned to the House of Austria, as such requests have become popular within the Diet, haven't they?

I will also second Edict 1.4. While I despise the Italians and their so-called 'freedom' as much as anyone here we can not afford a costly three-way war on the Apenin peninsular. An alliance with Venice would give us some security and buy us enough time to deal with the Milanese the Normans and finally Venice itself.

I see all other important edicts have already been seconded by a sufficient number.

Conrad von Schüsselen looks quite desinterested during his last sentence and finally sits back down.

[pevergreen]

Conrad, my good man, has the right idea men!

I second both Edicts he hath proposed.

Those vile Milanese should but taste the wrath of my blade, if my house were to expand southwards.

[Warluster]

ah, you are right Third Elector of Bavaria, I was in fact thinking of Hamburg, my apologys

[Warluster]

I also second the edicts you have put forward Second Elector Of Austria.
I have to agree that the Mialnese will somehow betray us, the Veneatians are more trustworthy, in some cases

[SwordsMaster]

The fourth Kurfurst of Bavaria waits for silence. He stands among the nobles staring above the heads of the council.


The House of Bavaria seconds the choice of supporting Venice over Milan, and therefore edict 1.4.

I also support the thought of conquering Florence to limit the expansion of other italian factions. But, oh Kaiser, does it not make more sense to grant the italian lands to the House of Bavaria in order to mantain cohesion and better administer them?

Edict 1.18 is supported.

[Lucjan]

Raising a hand quietly and standing, Dietrich interrupts a slow murmur of arguements and inquiries surrounding the territorial disputes between the southern duchies.

Please, if everybody may take a moment to review the Imperial charter as it stands.

And I quote, section 4.3.

The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest).

Let us then backtrack to section 3.9.

The Imperial Diet is presided over by the Kaiser. His rulings are final.

Dietrich looks about the room, casting a nod to his fellow Franconian electors before clearing his throat and beginning again. This time in a rather tenuous tone.

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

I am also concerned that some of you have taken the idea that the diet can pass an edict on the manner in which our honorable dukes order the arrangement of their masons' construction queies. This too is incorrect, as only the duke or count of a territory can determine, for the rest of the chancellor's reign in which said individual ruled, the order of construction for that territory.

Dietrich, trying his best to keep it a neutral remark for the whole of the diet to be more cautious and respectful in their proposals, pauses for a few seconds, turning over in his mind the proper way to put his next statement.


Many of you are young. Many of you still have some time before you're given the full chance to prove your wisdom or mettle for the good of the empire. And in that I believe that perhaps some of your errors are simple matters of youthful misunderstanding. But you will all get it soon. It's a learning experience, and I urge you all to take this oppertunity to learn well.

Dietrich looks then to some of the more senior members of the diet to deliberate on this latest issue. As some quiet discussion between House members continues with no immediate elector standing, he continues on some other matters.

In regards to Venice. I can understand some unwillingness to seek an alliance with them, let alone any Italian state. And by no means did I mean to suggest that the Kaiser is not capable of defending the lands in Italy he's so honorably taken. My only concern was that without Venice as an ally, we would be extremely hard pressed to reinforce you were the states of Italy to come down on you as a whole. You are the life blood of this Empire my lord. To lose you would be a devestating blow. Besides, with Venice being as untrustworthy as it is, we may as well take advantage of their faults early on. Let them break the alliance as the houses more knowledgeable of Italy than myself suggest they will. In that way we are given a significant enough cassus belli to wage war against them with relative impunity. Even the Pope would have a hard time explaining why we should stop aggressive action against them if they break such an alliance.

But that is as far as I will take the matter. Italy is, in fact, moreso the expertise of our southern Dukes. I simply offer my council in good faith.

In regards to the Danube, some seem to have confused the Poles with Magyars...I suggested keeping an eye on Hungary (the Magyars), who border Austria on the east Danube border and have in days not long past caused significant trouble and destruction to the countryside with their raids. The suggestion of monitoring there movements from the river is so as to assure that such things are not allowed to happen again.

But since Poland has been brought up in the discussion, I must opt towards defending these people from any aggression on our part, and insist that we establish peaceful relations with them. I've had the honor of meeting some of these people bound westward in merchant caravans, and must say that they are far from the despicable sort of men that many of our other neighbors seem to be comprised of. Sure the Poles go by somewhat of an awkward name, but in the long run their friendship would be far more beneficial to the Empire than turning them into another enemy. Trade with them could bring in valuable goods from the east and provide us with a friendly counterbalance to the potential growth of Hungary or some of the other far eastern peoples we have all heard tales of. I for one would value these people as a friend, not include them in our ever growing list of potential enemies.

In that respect, I propose Edict 1.19 - By the end of this chancellor's term, a diplomat will be dispatched to open up trade with Poland and exchange map information.

On a final note, I do believe it is also the Kaiser's, and only the Kaiser's, right to determine who his daughter shall take as a husband. I must also force myself to assume that some members of the House of Austria forget that Agnes is indeed Leopold's sister, and that such an, arrangement, would not be in the best interests of either party, let alone the esteem of the Kaiser's family.

And thank you Kaiser Heinrich for extending my message. Dietrich finally clears his throat and sits down.

[OverKnight]

The Third Elector of Bavaria, Gunther of Eichstadt (OOC:No avatar but he needed a name other than TEoB), speaks to the assembly:

There is wisdom in the Steward's words. I second edict 1.19. It is similar but more specific than edict 1.14. Though I hope our diplomat could visit Buda as well.

While I do not trust Milan I will not support 1.17. We have a claim on Milan, but we are not in the position, yet, to fulfill it. The Empire needs trade, florins for troops and buildings. We can still send an agent, edict 1.16, if needed.

I share the concern of Lord Dietrich about edict 1.18, with no land access to our Italian holdings we cannot send reinforcements without angering the Duke of Milan or the Doge. But as the Kaiser himself is on hand, it is, of course, his decision whether to take Florence or not.

Finally, as I do not wish to enter into a debate over the charter or betray my youth, I withdraw edict 1.15. It had not been seconded anyway.

Thank you milords.

[TinCow]

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

Dietrich, I must respectfully disagree with you on this matter. As we all surely know, the Kaiser does not have the power to exercise control over our private lands against our will. The very foundations of the Reich and the Electorate rest upon our own sovereignty within our own lands. If Hungarian troops encamp outside of Vienna and the Austrians rightfully repel them, taking a small area of only several hectares in the process, surely that land would belong to them. The Kaiser would have no more of a right to interfere in such a land matter as he would to give Vienna to the House of Swabia.

While it is wise to look to the Kaiser to resolve disputes, the matter of land distribution should bend to the will of the Houses if they can reach agreements on such matters. If no agreements can be met or if none are even proposed, then there is none better than the Kaiser to step in. However, this should not give him the power to allocate lands when the Diet is in agreement on the matter.

Furthermore, I would be concerned about such land powers being abused by future Kaisers who do not have the proven wisdom of Heinrich. By your interpretation of the laws, if the House of Swabia were to be attacked by the French and lose control of Staufen, the Kaiser could subsequently deliver it to Austria upon its recapture, even though this would be a blatant violation of Swabia's sovereignty over its own lands. While I know that the noble Heinrich would never do such a thing, we cannot trust that we will not some day find ourselves bending knee to a madman who would! We must protect our rights to our own lands now, lest our leniency be taken advantage of later.

Furthermore, I believe my interpretation is in-line with the law. If we reference the applicable legislation, we see the following:

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final.

This legislation is unclear on exactly what the Kaiser may rule on. It is clear from other legislation that his powers in the Diet are limited, so surely his rulings do not apply to everything. As I said before, the Kaiser cannot simply cede Vienna to the House of Swabia, even if he 'rules' it so before the Diet.

So, let us look for clarification.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

Ah, here we see that the Kaiser's duties specifically require him to decide on disputes of procedure that are otherwise deadlocked. This appears to be his main duty in the Diet. As such, clause 3.9 must be interpreted to reference this matter, as clause 3.9 specifically deals with the Kaiser’s powers within the Diet. If the allocation of land is outside the realm of Diet deliberations, then it is also outside the power of a ‘final’ ruling by the Kaiser. If the allocation of land is within the realm of Diet deliberations, then the Diet is free to rule on it if agreement can be reached. In addition, the Kaiser’s powers in regards to land are stated as follows:

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

Please note the most crucial of words in the legislations. The Kaiser CAN allocate settlements. This does not mean he must nor that he always has the ability. This is a conditional statement that gives him some authority, but not absolute authority on the matter. When reading all three of these pieces of legislation together, I believe it is perfectly consistent to allow the Diet to determine for itself the disposition of land if agreements can be reached on the matter. Surely if the majority of the Diet wishes to give Metz to Swabia, there is no harm in doing so.

[Ituralde]

Conrad rises from his seat as soon as Mandorf has finished speaking raising his voice slightly to be heard, befor falling back into his usual raspy voice:

This has become a legal dispute then, gentlemen?

His gaze scans the other members of the Diet.

Up until know I had seen the requests for land from the other Houses as an advice to our Emperor and therefore insisted on it in my own proposal, lest the House of Austria miss out on an... opportunity here.
This sheds another light on the already seconded votes by us, one that should not be taken on light-heartedly. Maybe another edict is in order, deciding who has the right to bestow lands?

My personal oppinion is, that our noble Emperor does indeed have the wisdom and knowledge to bestow conquered lands to whomever he seems fit enough to rule them in his name. I know him as an honourable man who surely would pay due respect to... notions mentioned in the Diet regarding those choices however. Honour should suffice, without the hassle of legal discussion and the tearing apart of paragraphs. If we can not reach a decision based on honour within this very Diet it looks indeed grim for our Empire.

As for your fear of our heartlands, surely no one has the right to deny you or your house their hereditary lands should we be forced to reconquer them one day! Maybe even another edict to grant us our hereditary rights? I don't think so.

A small cough escapes Conrad von Schüsselens lips but he composes himself immediatelly

I would also like to second Edict 1.19.

He takes a big breath inhaling loudly, before continuing.

As to the greedy notions of our fellow Bavarian Electors, I think our Emperor is wise enough to see through their ruse. Does not the House of Bavaria already control the rich city of Nuremburg and a mighty castle at Innsbruck? Surely this should be enough to statisfy their current needs, but instead they have sunk to haggling for provinces with our Emperor... A brief fit of couging interrupts Conrad Was it not I... Was it... I... that served in Italy... Conrad von Schüsselen can no longer control his coughing a small trickle of blood collects at the corner of his mouth while the couging shakes his body. The other Electors of the House of Austria have to support him as he sinks back onto his bench.
It seems that he has finished.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich: Well good electors, it seems that several rules disputes have come up. As Kaiser, it is my duty to rule on these and thus, effectively determine how much power I wield in this Diet.

I shall hereby keep the power to determine which House all newly-conquered settlements belong to. This decision is made not out of desire to wrench more power for myself, but for efficiency. The people of the world and of the Empire would see us weak if I had to drag you all back to Frankfurt every time one of us conquered! Good electors, nobody would get anything done!

That said:

I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

Charter Amendment 1.1: Upon escalation to the position of Kaiser, the previous oath must be stated in front of the Diet.

The power to build in provinces fall under those of the Dukes, and not the Diet. I cannot second 1.9.

1.10 is not necessary as there is a spy currently near Prague. I plan to send him in the city and report back to me on a regular basis.

I will second 1.12 if the number of men is reduced. Currently, by your wording, you ask for five companies. I believe that with a significant watchtower system in place as well as roads, we can make due with less.

You know my position on 1.13.

As for 1.14, see my opinion on 1.9.

1.16 should not be too much of a burden. Seconded.

As for 1.17, I do not second it since we could use the money. Worry about Milan later, but for now let us build the treasury!

1.18 is unnecessary as I fully plan to conquer Florence. As a matter of fact is about the first item on my agenda.

I second 1.19.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good electors, there has been much talk about the Italian city states and whether we should ally with them. I, as Kaiser, have this to say about Italy:

They are dogs. Treacherous dogs, all of them. I do not trust a single one of their people. They seek to expand and extend their pathetic influence over our people. This must not be allowed to happen. However, since all talks still persist, I offer the following compromise:

Edict 1.20: The Holy Roman Empire is to attempt to ally with Sicily.

My reasons for this are several. First of all, we share only a small border with Sicily, compared to fairly large ones with Venice and Milan. If the Sicilians were to execute a carefully-planned betrayal, they would only be a minor annoyance, compared to the threat of Venice and Milan. You remember the old adage from the times of the Roman Republic: Do not ally with your neighbors, but your neighbors' neighbors. I believe that this perfectly sums up our situation now.

I yield the floor.