Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 82 of 82

Thread: Most overall weak faction?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Senior Member Carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,461

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    @Musahsi: No offence intended here, so please take this in the spirit it’s given, (i.e. me thinking WTF).

    But if your starving them out you HAVE to have the 0.5 timescale on AND more than one army running around as even with 5 armies running round it will still take you all game to take just the minimum 45 provinces on standard timescales. In reality you'll probably want more.

    Likewise you really SHOULD fight siege battles as the defender, infantry on the walls will at least match, and maybe outperform HA. I had one battle (A Bridge battle, but breaches can do the same thing), where my Pikemen had a 40-1 kill rate against high quality dismounted knights. HA will struggle to match that as they haven’t a hope of formed charging spearmen away if you fix their shields, and don't have enough arrows to pull it off.

    On the flip side I WOULD recommend you play with 0.5 turns per year, in which case you CAN get away with always starving them out.

    Also stop and think about the power of HA compared to everything else. Most people seem to be admitting that they are pretty OTT on the field of battle, (I don’t have enough experience to be decisive about this). That’s already a pretty big IMBA to my eye and if they actually got nerfed so infantry armies COULD beat them, I doubt very much you'd be as fond of them. As that’s the impression I’m getting, you believe, (rightly), from testing that a pure HA army will beat anything else and thus any army that can't do a pure HA army is underpowered. That understandable and perhaps correct ATM. However, in reality if the game was balanced, a pure HA army vs. a pure Infantry Army would actually be an even match up.

    It's worth noting that when I look at things like "whos the weakest/strongest faction" I do it asssuming all matchups are balanced vs. one-another, even if in reality they arn't.
    Last edited by Carl; 01-13-2007 at 11:51.
    Find my ProblemFixer Purehere.

    This ProblemFixer fixes the following: 2-Hander bug, Pike Bug, Shield Bug, Chasing Routers, Cav not Charging, Formation Keeping Improved, Trait Bugs, and Ancillary Bugs.

    BETA Testers needed for the current version of RebuildProblemFixer. Thread here

  2. #62
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    The Mists of Legend
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    There's no reason Infantry armies should be able to beat horse archers. Historically horse archers really were that effective.

    Even if an infantry army has archers, the horse archers are more mobile, allowing them to flank the enemy easily. Enfilade missile fire is more effective than any kill rate that melee units could ever achieve, which is as it should be.

    That said, I'm not saying that any force that can't field horse archers is underpowered, I'm saying if you don't have high end cavalry or high end foot archers, you're pretty much the bottom of the barrel.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  3. #63
    Senior Member Senior Member Carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,461

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    There's no reason Infantry armies should be able to beat horse archers. Historically horse archers really were that effective.
    That’s the problem here though, this is a GAME, it has to be BALANCED. If that hold true then HA armies SHOULD be beatable by infantry armies.

    I'm saying if you don't have high end cavalry or high end foot archers, you're pretty much the bottom of the barrel.
    This is something else I don't agree with. I don't know if you've tried the Shield fix and pike fix yourself, but in case you haven’t let me reiterate something:

    Spear and Pike units will now MASSACARE cav unit. Cav can no longer formed charge everyone to death all the time anymore.

    Also, based on my own tests, many shield units aren’t getting full benefit from their shield against arrow fire. If they where I’d bet High End Arrow units wouldn't be half as deadly to spear units and Sword & Shield units. You also only need low end fast cav to beat high End Archers in any case, (low end heavy cav can do it too but it's harder a they are slower).

    It's my experience that with the fixes in place their is nothing high end cav, can do that High end Infantry can't do just as well. Likewise, to date High End archers have never won me a battle and have never lost me a battle. If they close up enough to be effective they are asking to be charged, if they stay back the enemy needs a disproportionate number of archer units to do serious damage, leaving them with littlie to actually finish off the remnants.

    Maybe your experience HAS been different, and I’m not trying to dismiss you, but the idea that an army HA’s to have either HA, High end Missile, or High end Cav to be effective sounds totally out of whack since it isn't even balanced, and thus isn't what should be happening. I'm also pretty sure I could give such armies a challenge, (although probably not against an experienced TW human player ATM).
    Last edited by Carl; 01-13-2007 at 12:45.
    Find my ProblemFixer Purehere.

    This ProblemFixer fixes the following: 2-Hander bug, Pike Bug, Shield Bug, Chasing Routers, Cav not Charging, Formation Keeping Improved, Trait Bugs, and Ancillary Bugs.

    BETA Testers needed for the current version of RebuildProblemFixer. Thread here

  4. #64

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    How well do firearms work against Horse Archer armies?

  5. #65
    Member Member SnowlyWhite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Overall(grand campaign wise, vh/vh) - I'd say either HRE(4 fronts, meh... worst planted then those it's hard - they have undoubtedly a good roster, but you're right in the middle of the road for everyone) if you don't manage to trash 2 things fast(probably danes and venice) or russia(another decent roster, I personally quite like it, but the economy is horrid for a long time and probably you'll get a mongol invasion before you're prepared for it - leaving aside it might actually come in your lands, instead of bagdad or alikes).

    Scotland definitelly does ok, as you can trash england's english provinces in 5 turns(or was it 6?) which opens up for a good econ. in north sea(given the fact the ai never does landings), Byzantium... Vardariotai(that unit is just gross(7 cata, 1 crummy general, rest Vardariotai - ~7-10% loss against a full stack of mongols) plus the fact you can trash the turks in under 7 turns(their family will be in the western 2 provinces, and, with abit of care you can kill all of them in 1 combat).

    Roster wise(single player mostly)... dunno, I'd say Scotland; or anything with poor cav./archery.
    The point in this game is not to win the battle(that you do anyway), but to win it with the fewest losses possible in order to conquer fast. If you play with a hard faction - orthodox or islam(playing catholic is just too easy... gimme a break, that pope has perfect relations with you if you give him ~800/turn... it's just ridiculous, you ignore his asking to stop - he won't excomunicate you since your relations are perfect, you give him another 2-3k, and bam, you're again back to perfect relations...) you'll notice that from turn 100 to 150, everything is timed so that you really need to be careful with your losses. Mongols come, when you're done with them, plague comes and kills your income just when you needed most, that is before the timurid invasion. Ended with byzantium in under 150 turns a grand campaign, but the last 50 turns were abit tough(vh/vh).
    That's where the ha shines - you win, you redo your units, send 3-4 units back to retrain(those that you used to fill the numbers of the other units in your stack), and you're good to go again. Leaving aside that, lack of good HA is a huge drawback because, even against human opponents, and it's still tough to catch a fast moving HA. Against computer, which acts instantly... The ai might be poor strategically, but definitelly has a better reaction time than any human and doesn't need to rely on skirmish. Leaving aside that catching them with your already badly shot at light cavalry would result only in losing to them in melee. Your border horsies might catch the Vardariotai after I've shot them 3-4 times, but then what? You have ~25 men left, and you'll just lose in melee(and don't tell me the uber infantry managed to keep after the horsies, in order to take advantage of the pinning:p)
    Last edited by SnowlyWhite; 01-13-2007 at 13:47.

  6. #66
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    The Mists of Legend
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    That’s the problem here though, this is a GAME, it has to be BALANCED. If that hold true then HA armies SHOULD be beatable by infantry armies.



    This is something else I don't agree with. I don't know if you've tried the Shield fix and pike fix yourself, but in case you haven’t let me reiterate something:

    Spear and Pike units will now MASSACARE cav unit. Cav can no longer formed charge everyone to death all the time anymore.

    Also, based on my own tests, many shield units aren’t getting full benefit from their shield against arrow fire. If they where I’d bet High End Arrow units wouldn't be half as deadly to spear units and Sword & Shield units. You also only need low end fast cav to beat high End Archers in any case, (low end heavy cav can do it too but it's harder a they are slower).

    It's my experience that with the fixes in place their is nothing high end cav, can do that High end Infantry can't do just as well. Likewise, to date High End archers have never won me a battle and have never lost me a battle. If they close up enough to be effective they are asking to be charged, if they stay back the enemy needs a disproportionate number of archer units to do serious damage, leaving them with littlie to actually finish off the remnants.

    Maybe your experience HAS been different, and I’m not trying to dismiss you, but the idea that an army HA’s to have either HA, High end Missile, or High end Cav to be effective sounds totally out of whack since it isn't even balanced, and thus isn't what should be happening. I'm also pretty sure I could give such armies a challenge, (although probably not against an experienced TW human player ATM).
    You're still not understanding me. I'm saying that of the set: "Good Horse Archers, Excellent Cavalry, Excellent Shock Infantry, Excellent Missile Troops" you need any TWO or more to have a solid army (Except Horse Archers, they can be their own army). Having only one leaves you with far too few options on the battlefield.

    A heavy infantry army without any of the other elements lacks flexibility. You have one option and one option only: Attack directly and hope you win. Your enemies have a multitude of tactical options, flanking, encirclement, bombardment, etc.

    No matter what fixes you make to the units, cavalry charges into the flanks or rear will always crush any unit. And without credible cavalry support you have no way of defending your flanks. Infantry is SLOW, they can't outflank a decent commander, and certainly can never outflank cavalry.

    The main advantage of a heavy infantry army is that it requires little or no micromanagement... But if you face a cavalry commander who can handle micromanagement he's going to eat you for lunch.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  7. #67

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Horse archers make an awesome besieging force early in the game. You just lay siege to a rebel settlement with a few horse archers, then starve them until they sally. Then you withdraw as far away as possible and micromanage them to death.

  8. #68
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    The Mists of Legend
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Yeah, I meant to mention that. If you have cav armies you don't have to fight siege battles even on the normal timescale, because you only need a few units to take every castle. Micromanaged well you can easily take on much greater numbers with cav. Divide and conquer.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  9. #69

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    This is something that is especially true with horse archers. Because they are so underpowered on autocalc, the computer often sallies on the first turn. Then you can totally destroy them on the battlefield, even with much lower numbers, and take the city very quickly.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    i was playing on turkish mod as byzantiam and tore the sicilians to peices within 15 turns i nominate sicily

  11. #71
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    152

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkut
    How well do firearms work against Horse Archer armies?
    Depends which firearms but some of them work very very well. Longer range muskets, Reiters, Camel handgunners, etc

  12. #72

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Just about any foot archers tear horse archers up, but especially the ones with longer range.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    In all 5 campaigns I've played so far, the HRE is crushed quite early. So my vote goes to the HRE.
    Russia, Hungary and Milan do most of the time very well, as does Egypt after the Mongols show up.
    The Mongols have *never* gone after Russia, they've always gone after the Turks and Byz, moving into Europe.

    I think the Mongols just come to the player faction at the shortes possible route.
    I'll have to start another game as the Russians, I think...

  14. #74
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    The Mists of Legend
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olmsted
    Just about any foot archers tear horse archers up, but especially the ones with longer range.
    Not really true, because horse archers have mobility and therefore control the flow of battle. Horse archers bracketing foot archers to create a crossfire will utterly pwn the foot archers.

    It's even less true when you're talking about heavy armored horse archers.

    And of course, horse archers > foot archers in melee (Yes, certain hybrid shock/missile troops will beat the weakest horse archers, but the strongest horse archers will beat any foot archer you care to name in melee).

    Musketeers are worthless against horse archers by the way. The standard musketeer units were made deliberately weak against ranged fire, they drop like flies in an enfilade action by the horse archers. Not to mention that they absolutely suck in melee (Seriously, possibly the single worst melee troop in the game) and are therefore meat for the horse archers in melee.

    Janissary and Cossack Musketeers are a different story of course, but they'll still lose to Vardariotai or Dvor.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  15. #75
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    152

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    Not really true, because horse archers have mobility and therefore control the flow of battle. Horse archers bracketing foot archers to create a crossfire will utterly pwn the foot archers.

    It's even less true when you're talking about heavy armored horse archers.

    And of course, horse archers > foot archers in melee (Yes, certain hybrid shock/missile troops will beat the weakest horse archers, but the strongest horse archers will beat any foot archer you care to name in melee).

    Musketeers are worthless against horse archers by the way. The standard musketeer units were made deliberately weak against ranged fire, they drop like flies in an enfilade action by the horse archers. Not to mention that they absolutely suck in melee (Seriously, possibly the single worst melee troop in the game) and are therefore meat for the horse archers in melee.

    Janissary and Cossack Musketeers are a different story of course, but they'll still lose to Vardariotai or Dvor.
    The above would accurately describe battle results I have had when I have the horse archers and the AI is muskets, but as I was crusading the middle east as Spain my musketmen absolutely slaughtered HA's from ERE, Russia, Egypt and the Mongols. In terms of %'s and raw numbers, my musketmen were far more efficient in dispatching the enemy than when it was the other way around. I can only report on what I see. Though I have to say, playing a well-mixed all-cav army is an absolute blast on the steppes!

  16. #76
    Member Member SnowlyWhite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    The above would accurately describe battle results I have had when I have the horse archers and the AI is muskets, but as I was crusading the middle east as Spain my musketmen absolutely slaughtered HA's from ERE, Russia, Egypt and the Mongols.
    Well, when you start to move your ha's to flank and encircle them, the ai starts reforming his lines(with marching, not running), so it wastes valuable time reforming and reforming his infantry/foot archers till half are dead... While no sensible person would do this, instead sitting there and shooting:p

    And I have to change my oppinion abit... ok, the moors are utterly horrendous(and don't give me the camel gunner, when you reach that one you should already have half the map). The position is ok, you can take iberian peninsula without much fuss and develop fine from that, but... man, that rooster is... Sigh, their best unit early period is the mercenary crossbowman!

    I admit, I'm always caught with the jav. cav. in melee despite being fast moving and on skirmish, but meh... that's hardly my fault... They should just keep that dang formation or give javs abit more range... at least keep running if one guy was caught in melee...

  17. #77

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by SnowlyWhite
    And I have to change my oppinion abit... ok, the moors are utterly horrendous(and don't give me the camel gunner, when you reach that one you should already have half the map). The position is ok, you can take iberian peninsula without much fuss and develop fine from that, but... man, that rooster is... Sigh, their best unit early period is the mercenary crossbowman!

    I admit, I'm always caught with the jav. cav. in melee despite being fast moving and on skirmish, but meh... that's hardly my fault... They should just keep that dang formation or give javs abit more range... at least keep running if one guy was caught in melee...
    Funny, I was playing as Moors (H/H) and I don't have any problem with those lovely jav. cav. Because of the very good stamina, I can always run, and that means I can get a pincher attack pretty easily. I can usually win with less than 15% loss if the autocalc shows about equal strength (even against spear). In fact, my staple army up til I have the whole of Iberia and half of western europe remain the jav. cav. (Slowly mixing in with christian guard). In any case, Moors is hardly the weakest faction. In fact, I find it so much easier than playing any of the catholic faction because of the pope factor (or the lack thereof). And because Moors has so many more high piety priest (you have to, because of the location), I can call jihad with impunity. Furthermore, it's the faction closest to timbuktu, and farthest away from the mongols. In that sense, it's superior to the Egyptian and Turks (as far as muslim factions goes). Admittedly, the Navy is a bit too weak, especially late game, but the difference is only noticeable when you about own the whole map.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    I'd like to add one thing about horse archers and sieges. Though it is not very realistic, horse archers have the unique ability to march into the middle of a town and shoot down everything that comes at them. Foot archers, once bunched up in a giant glob, become inefective. They stop firing, except for the outer ring of said blob. However, with a blob of horse archers, ALL of the horse archers will fire, in all directions, at everything, with stunning accuracy. You can have maybe a handfull of HC blocking 3-4 hundred infantry that are to stupid to charge past in a roadway. All packed together, they die like flies under the fire of the horse archer blob not 10 feet away from them. As the infantry get closer, the blob moves away. Most infantry just rout and go back to the city center.

    I would also like to add my vote to Scotland as the weakest faction, even though it breaks my heart. I would say the mongols make a close second. They don't even start with a province, and their horse archers are -just- ok. They arn't Byzantine/Russia/Turk standard. If it wasn't for all their powerups and numbers when they arrive..we'd probably just sort of snicker when the "dreaded mongol horde" arrives.

    I'd say their best unit is actually their dismounted heavy archer. HE has the stats that the mounted heavy archer should have...

  19. #79

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuraffo
    Funny, I was playing as Moors (H/H) and I don't have any problem with those lovely jav. cav. Because of the very good stamina, I can always run, and that means I can get a pincher attack pretty easily. I can usually win with less than 15% loss if the autocalc shows about equal strength (even against spear). In fact, my staple army up til I have the whole of Iberia and half of western europe remain the jav. cav. (Slowly mixing in with christian guard). In any case, Moors is hardly the weakest faction. In fact, I find it so much easier than playing any of the catholic faction because of the pope factor (or the lack thereof). And because Moors has so many more high piety priest (you have to, because of the location), I can call jihad with impunity. Furthermore, it's the faction closest to timbuktu, and farthest away from the mongols. In that sense, it's superior to the Egyptian and Turks (as far as muslim factions goes). Admittedly, the Navy is a bit too weak, especially late game, but the difference is only noticeable when you about own the whole map.
    I would say that in light of these new discoveries of shield bugginess, the Moors would probably be a strong contender for the top three weakest factions. Almost all of their foot units are completely unarmored, and rely on defense skill and shield. Since only one plays a partial role in ranged defense, and the other plays a negative role in melee defense, the Moor infantry are pretty second rate until later on.
    If I wanted to be [jerked] around and have my intelligence insulted, I'd go back to church.
    -Bill Maher

  20. #80

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    I think the greatness of the horse archer is being exaggerated. Sure, HA armies never have to fight a siege. IF time is not an issue. Realistically speaking, it's going to take you a hell of a long time compared to a heavy infantry+cavalry army with artillery that can take a city on each turn.

    Sure, HA armies dominate infantry armies. IF you fight them in the vast open fields. Similarly, infantry armies dominate HA armies in close quarters/chokepoints. Tough luck for the HA's that infantry armies can set up fort at the end of each turn, and they can siege & assault a city, storm the gates and force close combat. HA's can't really force anything other than a sally after many turns under siege, where you can put your archers up on the walls and deny them missle superiority.

    On the plain battlefield, I agree, HA's win it. This game's limited unit numbers make the "battles" more like skirmishes where large-scale strategies don't quite work too well and the HA's individual performance is strong. Although, with proper usage of heavy cavalry to guard the flanks, and armored foot archers & line infantry, you stand a good chance of fending off enemy HA armies.

    So strategically speaking, I'd favor factions with strong infantry and heavy cavalry over factions with strong HA cavalry and crap infantry. The English in particular have excellent heavy infantry, excellent archers with excellent capabilities, and very respectable cavalry that can do its job. If I were to play an online battle on flat plains, however, I'd lean more towards HA's.
    Last edited by Spark; 01-14-2007 at 10:18.

  21. #81
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    The Mists of Legend
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark
    I think the greatness of the horse archer is being exaggerated. Sure, HA armies never have to fight a siege. IF time is not an issue. Realistically speaking, it's going to take you a hell of a long time compared to a heavy infantry+cavalry army with artillery that can take a city on each turn.

    Sure, HA armies dominate infantry armies. IF you fight them in the vast open fields. Similarly, infantry armies dominate HA armies in close quarters/chokepoints. Tough luck for the HA's that infantry armies can set up fort at the end of each turn, and they can siege & assault a city, storm the gates and force close combat. HA's can't really force anything other than a sally after many turns under siege, where you can put your archers up on the walls and deny them missle superiority.

    On the plain battlefield, I agree, HA's win it. This game's limited unit numbers make the "battles" more like skirmishes where large-scale strategies don't quite work too well and the HA's individual performance is strong. Although, with proper usage of heavy cavalry to guard the flanks, and armored foot archers & line infantry, you stand a good chance of fending off enemy HA armies.

    So strategically speaking, I'd favor factions with strong infantry and heavy cavalry over factions with strong HA cavalry and crap infantry. The English in particular have excellent heavy infantry, excellent archers with excellent capabilities, and very respectable cavalry that can do its job. If I were to play an online battle on flat plains, however, I'd lean more towards HA's.
    HA's can force anything. They're faster, therefore they control where they fight. If you build a fort they can siege it (Yes, you can lay siege to a fort). If you have a full stack of infantry in the fort I'd simply leave half a stack of horse archers to siege it while the rest moved on to lay siege to all your cities.

    If you sally, even vs half your number in horse archers, you will lose.

    You don't gain missile superiority by placing your archers on the walls, because the enemy horse archers can simply refuse to come within range. All they have to do is run out the clock. A draw is a win for them, since the siege timer keeps counting down.

    It's not at all slow to starve out cities with horse archers, because you can easily drop 3 units of HA at every city and be starving out 10 cities at once with no problems.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  22. #82
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Besides, it's hardly mutually exclusive. I will often have 2-3 HAs starving out huge militia garrisons everywhere. For big cities I want to take ASAP, I have a full stack of infantry moving behind my HAs (say a horde of Saracen militia as the Turks). The HA stack can get to the city faster and already have all the necessary siege equipment constructed by the time the infantry gets there.

    HA armies have huge mobility advantages and can pick fights to their advantage. AI also rarely builds forts so that's not a biggie either.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO