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  1. #1
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkut
    How well do firearms work against Horse Archer armies?
    Depends which firearms but some of them work very very well. Longer range muskets, Reiters, Camel handgunners, etc

  2. #2

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Just about any foot archers tear horse archers up, but especially the ones with longer range.

  3. #3
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olmsted
    Just about any foot archers tear horse archers up, but especially the ones with longer range.
    Not really true, because horse archers have mobility and therefore control the flow of battle. Horse archers bracketing foot archers to create a crossfire will utterly pwn the foot archers.

    It's even less true when you're talking about heavy armored horse archers.

    And of course, horse archers > foot archers in melee (Yes, certain hybrid shock/missile troops will beat the weakest horse archers, but the strongest horse archers will beat any foot archer you care to name in melee).

    Musketeers are worthless against horse archers by the way. The standard musketeer units were made deliberately weak against ranged fire, they drop like flies in an enfilade action by the horse archers. Not to mention that they absolutely suck in melee (Seriously, possibly the single worst melee troop in the game) and are therefore meat for the horse archers in melee.

    Janissary and Cossack Musketeers are a different story of course, but they'll still lose to Vardariotai or Dvor.
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  4. #4
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    Not really true, because horse archers have mobility and therefore control the flow of battle. Horse archers bracketing foot archers to create a crossfire will utterly pwn the foot archers.

    It's even less true when you're talking about heavy armored horse archers.

    And of course, horse archers > foot archers in melee (Yes, certain hybrid shock/missile troops will beat the weakest horse archers, but the strongest horse archers will beat any foot archer you care to name in melee).

    Musketeers are worthless against horse archers by the way. The standard musketeer units were made deliberately weak against ranged fire, they drop like flies in an enfilade action by the horse archers. Not to mention that they absolutely suck in melee (Seriously, possibly the single worst melee troop in the game) and are therefore meat for the horse archers in melee.

    Janissary and Cossack Musketeers are a different story of course, but they'll still lose to Vardariotai or Dvor.
    The above would accurately describe battle results I have had when I have the horse archers and the AI is muskets, but as I was crusading the middle east as Spain my musketmen absolutely slaughtered HA's from ERE, Russia, Egypt and the Mongols. In terms of %'s and raw numbers, my musketmen were far more efficient in dispatching the enemy than when it was the other way around. I can only report on what I see. Though I have to say, playing a well-mixed all-cav army is an absolute blast on the steppes!

  5. #5
    Member Member SnowlyWhite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    The above would accurately describe battle results I have had when I have the horse archers and the AI is muskets, but as I was crusading the middle east as Spain my musketmen absolutely slaughtered HA's from ERE, Russia, Egypt and the Mongols.
    Well, when you start to move your ha's to flank and encircle them, the ai starts reforming his lines(with marching, not running), so it wastes valuable time reforming and reforming his infantry/foot archers till half are dead... While no sensible person would do this, instead sitting there and shooting:p

    And I have to change my oppinion abit... ok, the moors are utterly horrendous(and don't give me the camel gunner, when you reach that one you should already have half the map). The position is ok, you can take iberian peninsula without much fuss and develop fine from that, but... man, that rooster is... Sigh, their best unit early period is the mercenary crossbowman!

    I admit, I'm always caught with the jav. cav. in melee despite being fast moving and on skirmish, but meh... that's hardly my fault... They should just keep that dang formation or give javs abit more range... at least keep running if one guy was caught in melee...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by SnowlyWhite
    And I have to change my oppinion abit... ok, the moors are utterly horrendous(and don't give me the camel gunner, when you reach that one you should already have half the map). The position is ok, you can take iberian peninsula without much fuss and develop fine from that, but... man, that rooster is... Sigh, their best unit early period is the mercenary crossbowman!

    I admit, I'm always caught with the jav. cav. in melee despite being fast moving and on skirmish, but meh... that's hardly my fault... They should just keep that dang formation or give javs abit more range... at least keep running if one guy was caught in melee...
    Funny, I was playing as Moors (H/H) and I don't have any problem with those lovely jav. cav. Because of the very good stamina, I can always run, and that means I can get a pincher attack pretty easily. I can usually win with less than 15% loss if the autocalc shows about equal strength (even against spear). In fact, my staple army up til I have the whole of Iberia and half of western europe remain the jav. cav. (Slowly mixing in with christian guard). In any case, Moors is hardly the weakest faction. In fact, I find it so much easier than playing any of the catholic faction because of the pope factor (or the lack thereof). And because Moors has so many more high piety priest (you have to, because of the location), I can call jihad with impunity. Furthermore, it's the faction closest to timbuktu, and farthest away from the mongols. In that sense, it's superior to the Egyptian and Turks (as far as muslim factions goes). Admittedly, the Navy is a bit too weak, especially late game, but the difference is only noticeable when you about own the whole map.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Most overall weak faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuraffo
    Funny, I was playing as Moors (H/H) and I don't have any problem with those lovely jav. cav. Because of the very good stamina, I can always run, and that means I can get a pincher attack pretty easily. I can usually win with less than 15% loss if the autocalc shows about equal strength (even against spear). In fact, my staple army up til I have the whole of Iberia and half of western europe remain the jav. cav. (Slowly mixing in with christian guard). In any case, Moors is hardly the weakest faction. In fact, I find it so much easier than playing any of the catholic faction because of the pope factor (or the lack thereof). And because Moors has so many more high piety priest (you have to, because of the location), I can call jihad with impunity. Furthermore, it's the faction closest to timbuktu, and farthest away from the mongols. In that sense, it's superior to the Egyptian and Turks (as far as muslim factions goes). Admittedly, the Navy is a bit too weak, especially late game, but the difference is only noticeable when you about own the whole map.
    I would say that in light of these new discoveries of shield bugginess, the Moors would probably be a strong contender for the top three weakest factions. Almost all of their foot units are completely unarmored, and rely on defense skill and shield. Since only one plays a partial role in ranged defense, and the other plays a negative role in melee defense, the Moor infantry are pretty second rate until later on.
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