The Shield Problem(s)

[Revenant]

I did read it Carl. I have read many of your posts. They all move to this beat: bug, fix, bug bug fix, fix, fix, fix fix bug. Which plays into a larger phenomenon I've noticed about the boards: somebody finds something they question in the game, and make a "fix" for it! Meanwhile, it's by no means clear that the vanilla version of what they're changing was bugged in any way. Alot of this is stylistic; it's modding. But you can't find a percieved problem, mod it, and then claim to have achieved balance. Okay, so many people around here like to do just that. But for people who care about the vanilla experience, and are more comfortable leaving the balance aspect to the original creators, all this rush to modify is a bit too hasty.

OK, but the 2H axes/polearms units are bugged (without any of fixes), at least this is true.

But the other issues can be in reality intentional game mechanics. Shields hamper combat, but because late units (as zweihanders and DGK) do not have big stats, everything will equals itself. Or maybe developers discovered some bugs before release, and then tried to "repair" it with some artificial rules, we cannot be sure.

[Carl]

Vargarian Guard ARE effected. Just ran some tests, one with the Vargarian Guard set to have 60 sheild, the other with them set to the defualt 3 sheild. Both with fixed attack animations, (Voulgiers Animation). They fought Dismounted Conquistodors with my sheild fix (add the sheild value plus 2 to their defence skill).

With the standard sheild the Vangarian guard slaughtered the Conquistodors with less than 10 dead. With the 60 sheild they where down to just 10 left when the Conquistodors routed. Go figure.

@Reverant: I'd also say the pikes are a definte bug, they simply refuse to use pikes when not reciving a charge 90% of the time and are hopless without them. I don't think that issue is in any doubt eithier.

[Revenant]

@Reverant: I'd also say the pikes are a definte bug, they simply refuse to use pikes when not reciving a charge 90% of the time and are hopless without them. I don't think that issue is in any doubt eithier.

But some people claim pikes are working for them. I used them in some custom battles - long line of pikes + some heavy hitting units, cavalry and arquebusiers and they were victorious over armies composed of heavy armoured assaualt infantry such as dismounted feudals, chivalrics + cavalry and shooting support. Maybe their use is just cheap line infantry to hold enemy, maybe it is feature, not bug.

[Carl]

Considering pikes are a Late era, expensive, elite infantry in most armies I don't think they are cheap line holders, plus Swordsmen (even with the sheild bug), are much better at that anyway due to their better attack and defence stats. if they arn't using their Pikes, Pikemen are infiriour to EVRYTHING, including most types of spearmen.

Also, whilst people HAVE got them working in vanillia, they have to mess about and work really hard to make them work, and they STILL don't beat the units they should without massive losses. Considering their vulnrability to flank and rear charges they have to be able to beat supiriour stat units head on convincingly to justify their price.

[Foz]

Here's the Shield Fix version 1.2, which puts half the shield points rounded down into armour, and half rounded up into skill (and thus zeroes the shield stat for all units). It's available in 2 flavors:

1. A patched vanilla export_descr_unit.txt file...

OR

2. The patcher program, which will generate a new file from your existing EDU. Put it in your data folder where the export_descr_unit.txt file you use is, and run it. It generates a new file called "new unit file.txt" that you'll have to rename to export_descr_unit.txt after you backup your old one.

[Carl]

Have you done the Vargarian Guard and Norse Axemen too?

A Note to everyone else, whilst the armour fix DOSEN'T mess up auto-calc. it WILL mess up actual battles as AP missile units are significantly more effective against sheild units now. This is going to really hurt against crossbows and Longbows and the like. You might want to bear that in mind. Especially with say, Pavise Crossbowmen.

[Foz]

Have you done the Vargarian Guard and Norse Axemen too?

A Note to everyone else, whilst the armour fix DOSEN'T mess up auto-calc. it WILL mess up actual battles as AP missile units are significantly more effective against sheild units now. This is going to really hurt against crossbows and Longbows and the like. You might want to bear that in mind. Especially with say, Pavise Crossbowmen.

Yes, those units too. Every single unit that lists a value for shield has it added to armour and set to 0.

After seeing the comment about AP missiles beating down more on the fixed units, I set out to prove it correct. Alas, I could not...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Armoured swordsmen receiving 7 volleys of yeoman fire on grassy plain. I gave France the swordsmen to accomplish this. I had to restart the test twice to avoid bad weather. As per my standard, I sat them there in default formation to receive the fire at the archers' leisure.

arm 8/skl 8/shd 6. These are the default unit stats.
Swordsmen Killed:

13
13
14
12
8
--
60

arm 14/skl 8/shd 0. These are the fixed stats, shield pts moved to armour.
Swordsmen Killed:

10
8
12
11
9
--
50

The number of dead swordsmen is actually less with the fixed stats, though I'm certain the difference isn't statistically significant, meaning we should consider the results equal. To speculate as to the reason for this result... I would surmise that the AP stat is being applied to the defense total that would normally oppose any given attack, instead of just the armour field. This could arise from ambiguity in the word armour... where it could mean the armour stat of the unit is being pierced, or it could mean physical items that are "armour" are being pierced. Regardless of why, in this case I'm saying the shield's ranged bonus was probably already being cut in half by the AP as well as the unit's armour value, meaning there is in fact no difference between having shield points and having armour points for the purposes of AP.

This is by no way an exhaustive test, however, and will require considerably more data and confirmation from others in order to be considered remotely conclusive. So for now consider it a hunch with some data seemingly pointing in its direction

[Revenant]

I'm posting my shield fix, which puts the shield points directly into armour instead (and thus zeroes the shield stat for all units). It's available in 2 flavors:

1. A patched vanilla export_descr_unit.txt file...

OR

2. The patcher program, which will generate a new file from your existing EDU, adding all shield values to armour and replacing them with zeroes. Put it in your data folder where the export_descr_unit.txt file you use is, and run it. It generates a new file called "new unit file.txt" that you'll have to rename to export_descr_unit.txt after you backup your old one.

Thanks, good work

But as I said, late non shield units are now totally crap.

[Carl]

Couldn't sleep so I did the tests. The following are cashulty figures. In the first set the target unit had 40 sheild. In the Second they had 40 Armour. the firing unit was Longbowmen with a missile attack of 20. Same weather for all and 7 volleys each.

40 Sheild

33
23
35
27
27

40 Armour

21
15
17
23
14

Do you know what I thinks happening? The sheild value is only being applied to attacks from the left.

But as I said, late non shield units are now totally crap.

First, does this file include fixed 2-Hander animations and Fixed Pikes? if it dosen't then it will seem that way.

Second, are you using spear or 2-handed sword units to determine this, if you are DON'T both are seriously underpowered vs. infantry and Pikemen. Fixed non-sword 2-handers and unfixed Sheild units will ALL beat them, (or decimate them before losing). A test with eithier type of unit proves NOTHING IMHO.

[Foz]

I'm posting my shield fix, which puts the shield points directly into armour instead (and thus zeroes the shield stat for all units). It's available in 2 flavors:

1. A patched vanilla export_descr_unit.txt file...

OR

2. The patcher program, which will generate a new file from your existing EDU, adding all shield values to armour and replacing them with zeroes. Put it in your data folder where the export_descr_unit.txt file you use is, and run it. It generates a new file called "new unit file.txt" that you'll have to rename to export_descr_unit.txt after you backup your old one.

Shield Fix Version 1.1 is now up, and is used exactly like 1.0 above was. I replaced the old fix files, so the links above now link to the 1.1 fix. It now adds half (rounded down for odd numbers) of the shield into armor, and zeroes shield for all units that have a non-zero shield stat. Note that there's no good way to redo an already fixed file, so you'll have to re-implement any changes you've made into the fixed vanilla file, or patch a file that has your changes but not the previous shield fix in it. As it may change again, it's probably a good idea to mod a vanilla file to suit your preferences and stash it away somewhere, then apply the fix to it and use the resulting new file. That way you have those changes to apply the next (if any) version of the fix to.

Let slip the dogs of war.

[Vinsitor]

Tnx

[Revenant]

Considering pikes are a Late era, expensive, elite infantry in most armies I don't think they are cheap line holders, plus Swordsmen (even with the sheild bug), are much better at that anyway due to their better attack and defence stats. if they arn't using their Pikes, Pikemen are infiriour to EVRYTHING, including most types of spearmen.

Also, whilst people HAVE got them working in vanillia, they have to mess about and work really hard to make them work, and they STILL don't beat the units they should without massive losses. Considering their vulnrability to flank and rear charges they have to be able to beat supiriour stat units head on convincingly to justify their price.

I am not expert on pike units, but did some tests. In the hands of player and with hold mode offTercio pikemen always defeated Sword and buckler men. In one to one combat. I was using vanilla stats. Take also the fact they are impenetrable to frontal attack from cavalry and they do not have very high upkeep. And are also relatively cheap (cheaper than armored sergeants, for example).

With computer using pikes, well that entirelly different matter, computer just cannot handle them I think it is because comp has always hold mode on and pikes just not attack in this mode.

But it probably belong somewhere else.

[Slaists]

Since, MTW II inherits RTW engine, it would be interesting to test whether the shield problem exists in RTW too.

[Revenant]

Since, MTW II inherits RTW engine, it would be interesting to test whether the shield problem exists in RTW too.

I just did some tests but probably not.