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  1. #1
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shield Problem(s)

    I'm still not sure if it is the best solution to put half shield value to armor and half to defence.

    I think we have to distinguish shields, as not all shields are same. Those big shields most of spearmen holds are quite heavy and bulky. Spearman in close combat equipped with that shield and 2.5m spear will be not very effective in melee,but he will be able to resist missile fire and keep cavalry at bay with his spear. That why all spear infantry always fought in formation and were killed imidiatelly after formation was broken. I know that Romans used large shields in melee, but they didnt use them with large swords. Gladius was stabbing sword and therefore was easy to use with large heavy shield in formation.


    At the other end, small shields are not that heavy ,they can help you to block blows of your enemy and provide limited protection against arrows.

    My oppinion is that negative shield value should stay, as it allow to make units perform realistically against different type of attack. Units just need more balanccing work.

    My suggestion is add same defence value as the shield has for all spear units (to negate " - " effect), and for all melee infantry armed with small shield to halve the shield value and add it to armor. That way melee units will have same missile resistance, flanking them will be a good idea (with shield fix it is unimportant) and negative bonus will not efect them that much.


    It is easier to add few points of defence to all units that dont have shield and balance it to have autocalc work, than loose that kind of reality.

  2. #2
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shield Problem(s)

    We tried that, but then spear units become too powerful in autoresolve because their defense goes through the roof.

    Having separate shield bonuses for missile and melee combat was cut out of the unit files, along with scaled armor bonuses for upgrades (ie +4 armor for padded upgrade rather than +1). Re-enabling it crashes the game.
    Last edited by dopp; 01-26-2007 at 14:26.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shield Problem(s)

    Jerome Grasdyke advised that the best option was half to armour and half to defence skill. That's good enough for me. Balancing the other troop types can be done afterwards.
    =MizuDoc Otomo=

  4. #4
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shield Problem(s)

    @JaM: If you don't like your shields to give bonuses in melee combat, you of course are free to think that and consequently not download or use any sort of fix. Things to keep in mind though:

    1. You are not going to make me believe shields are bad in melee combat, which means my shield fix is not going to change to reflect what you think or want.
    2. You are not going to get most people to believe it either, which is clear because so many people have spoken up at being disturbed that shields are NOT working in melee, and because it's historically inaccurate to suggest that shields do not work in melee combat. Even the heaviest of metal shields is typically not more than 15 pounds (exception being tower-style shields meant for covering a man completely), the weight of a bowling ball (wooden shields are lighter still). Practice and training make that kind of weight rather easy to heft on the battlefield. You don't even need to move a large shield around much for it to be effective: it's a big barrier that gives you cover from the enemy, and significantly narrows the area of your body that he can strike at in order to harm you. Smaller shields of course require more active blocking, but at the same time they are much lighter so you can maneuver them around a lot to get that done.

    So please, stop insisting that the shield melee penalty should be there: it's a tired and completely erroneous argument, and one that only serves to clutter the thread with kickback from the other 99% of people who realize how shields actually work.


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