Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

[Sasaki Kojiro]

How come? I could see it if they were acting suspiciously on trying to enter the premises, but not actually with regard to an offence they commited not directly connected to the hotel.

They are supposed to stop crime if they see it even if off duty. Makes sense to me.

My mind is boggling here. Are you saying that any American business or individual with enough $$ can hire a cop to do his bidding while the cop is still acting in his capacity and exercising his authority as a police officer?

That does not sound right.

I can understand hiring a cop to work security for you while he is off duty, but it seems, well, corrupt, for lack of a better word, to have a police officer trading on the authority granted to him by virtue of his uniform.

A cop on another forum was taking questions and he said this. Businesses like to hire police because they are trained and reliable, and cops like to make extra money. If you see standing around walmart that's what they are doing.

[Dave1984]

[QUOTE=Sasaki Kojiro]They are supposed to stop crime if they see it even if off duty. Makes sense to me.
/QUOTE]


Hmm yes, but then how does that expectation extend to an average citixen's civic duty?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

They are supposed to stop crime if they see it even if off duty. Makes sense to me.

Hmm yes, but then how does that expectation extend to an average citixen's civic duty?

Average citizens aren't cops? If someone tells you "hey, you can't walk across the street like that" and you are over the age of 15, then they are a cop. Not a "rude young man" or whatever

[Goofball]

Average citizens aren't cops? If someone tells you "hey, you can't walk across the street like that" and you are over the age of 15, then they are a cop. Not a "rude young man" or whatever

Really?

I was waiting at the mouth of my driveway yesterday to pull out into traffic, when a pedestrian walked up to my window (my driveway, as many do, crosses the sidewalk, so my vehicle was blocking the sidewalk as I waited for an opening in traffic). She was quite angry with me and told me in a voice that had quite an air of command to it that I had to back up off of the sidewalk to let pedestrians pass.

By your criteria, I should have assumed that she was a police officer and done exactly what she told me to do.

As it happens, I played the odds that she wasn't a police officer, and told her exactly what I thought she should do...

[Goofball]

A cop on another forum was taking questions and he said this. Businesses like to hire police because they are trained and reliable, and cops like to make extra money. If you see standing around walmart that's what they are doing.

But they should not be able to do this in uniform, pretending to still be acting in their official capacity as police officers, when, in the case you describe, they are nothing more than Wal Mart employees.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Really?

I was waiting at the mouth of my driveway yesterday to pull out into traffic, when a pedestrian walked up to my window (my driveway, as many do, crosses the sidewalk, so my vehicle was blocking the sidewalk as I waited for an opening in traffic). She was quite angry with me and told me in a voice that had quite an air of command to it that I had to back up off of the sidewalk to let pedestrians pass.

By your criteria, I should have assumed that she was a police officer and done exactly what she told me to do.

As it happens, I played the odds that she wasn't a police officer, and told her exactly what I thought she should do...

I thought you lived in Canada.

But they should not be able to do this in uniform, pretending to still be acting in their official capacity as police officers, when, in the case you describe, they are nothing more than Wal Mart employees.

Why not? They can still arrest people. They would be there to catch shoplifters not restock shelves or something.

[Dave1984]

Why not? They can still arrest people. They would be there to catch shoplifters not restock shelves or something.

Oh yeah, I agree with this point. Every security guard in every store (in the UK, I don't know about how things are done elsewhere) should have powers of arrest. I remember working security in stores in Edinburgh and knowing that I only had whatever pretend authority I could muster to detain a shoplifter, knowing that if I laid a finger on him I could end up in the cells (for even lomger if he was a she and claimed sexual assault). But the best we could do was ask them to accompany us to the back of the store to wait for police, which was very difficult when they tended to dive into the shelves and claimed I'd thumped them!

[Mooks]

You know what police force doesnt mess around? The russians. Watching a video where the russians set up a raid on a couple of red mafia drug dealers, they went STRAIGHT down to the ground when they saw the cops coming

[naut]

Trust Yanks to be overly gung-ho.

Here you can jaywalk as long as it is not within 20m of a sactioned crossing.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You know what police force doesnt mess around? The russians. Watching a video where the russians set up a raid on a couple of red mafia drug dealers, they went STRAIGHT down to the ground when they saw the cops coming

Not a good example, given the subject of the thread. Many Russian police will randomly fine perfectly law-abiding people - for say, possessing a loud tie after the hours of darkness. Especially if you look rich or foreign. Unless you look very rich, in which case they'll suspect you're one of the Mafia that pays the rest of their top-ups and start staring into the middle distance and whistling.

I happen to know Professor Fernandez-Armesto in real life, and he is a wonderfully cultured and gentle person of impeccable manners. However, he is quite other-worldly and would no doubt seem like a pompous jerk to a policeman who I suspect is more used to dealing with vulgarity and the anticipation of a violent reaction. The professor may well have appeared as if he was on drugs rather than utterly bewildered.

It seems to me to be a particularly unfortunate clash of cultures from opposite ends of the US/European divide. This appears to be borne out by the wise judgement from the more reflective bench. I think the police over-reacted, but one imagines that on the streets of Atlanta, one wants to be sure a suspect is powerless before unleashes a gun or somesuch.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Just for variety, the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...istorian11.xml

Seems to me a gross over-reaction by the Police but more unfortunate than milicious.

As to Policemen doing any other job to top up their pay, in Britain they get into serious trouble for doing that.

[BDC]

Oh yeah, I agree with this point. Every security guard in every store (in the UK, I don't know about how things are done elsewhere) should have powers of arrest. I remember working security in stores in Edinburgh and knowing that I only had whatever pretend authority I could muster to detain a shoplifter, knowing that if I laid a finger on him I could end up in the cells (for even lomger if he was a she and claimed sexual assault). But the best we could do was ask them to accompany us to the back of the store to wait for police, which was very difficult when they tended to dive into the shelves and claimed I'd thumped them!

To be honest I'd rather not have big untrained guys being allowed to jump me if they thought I'd stolen something. I like not being crippled by over-enthusiastic and bored guys whenever I walk into a chain store.

[Major Robert Dump]

A peace officer is sworn to uphold the law. This means they can be fired for indescretions "off the clock" and on the flip side it means if they are acting as second job security at Wal-Mart in uniform people are expected to do as they say. I don't know where the plainclothes fits in here, as I have personally told many a security guard to kiss my butt because they have no legal authority outside of private property protection.

Seems like a cop-become-guard not in cop uniform could be a tricky situation

[Dave1984]

To be honest I'd rather not have big untrained guys being allowed to jump me if they thought I'd stolen something. I like not being crippled by over-enthusiastic and bored guys whenever I walk into a chain store.

Of course there should be limits, but I mean in situations when the guy has seen someone commit the offence, has pulled them up on it and they've refused to stop.
When the guy only suspects something, or has got a description of someone acting suspiciously over the radio, the powers should remain the same, IE none past watching them like a hawk and wandering round the store after them in that "I'm pretending not to be watching you, and you're pretending not to have seen me, but we all know what's happening here" kind of way.
I don't advocate being able to jump anyone unless you've seen with your own eyes them do something, but you're always going to get less reputable guys pushing guidelines like that to their limits.

[Bartix]

This guy is an elitist idiot.

Elitist idiots are so funny sticking noses up at them selves!

The BBC has already admitted to being biased, anti-American, bible burning, koran loving lefties.

Can you provide link?

[Red Peasant]

So, let me get this straight, if there is a perfectly empty road with ne'er a tin cage in sight, just begging to be crossed, then your average 'freedom-loving' American would still rather walk to the crossing half a mile away in order to cross said road instead? They allow you to own and carry firearms, but don't trust you to cross the road? Crazy.

The enforcement of these rules seems like a waste of police time and resources to me, speaking purely as a 'freedom-hating' Brit of course. With the fines involved (I assume), it also seems like another revenue scam for the local authorities, which means that it will be coming to Britain soon!

Gotta laugh at the touchy responses from our US friends on here though.

[Justiciar]

Googlified.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

[Sir Moody]

... never use the daily mail to try and prove something....

[Justiciar]

Fair point, as far as I'm aware that's the only source though.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Fair point, as far as I'm aware that's the only source though.

Really? I wonder why? I simply can't believe that the Daily Mail would have an agenda on the matter.

[KukriKhan]

Opening this thread, the first thing I was struck by was the very idea of a policeman on-foot. I haven't seen one of those since childhood in Detroit; nowadays they're all mounted everywhere I've been in the US (and I've been to Atlanta).

Reading through however, it seems maybe that wasn't the case.

Obviously the arrest in this case was dicey enough that the judge threw it out. The officer is actually lucky his 'perp' was a Brit - had he been a local, we could expect to read about lawsuits for "unlawful assault under color of authority", "false arrest", kidnap, & false imprisonment against the officer, Atlanta PD & the Hotel - all settled out-of-court for an undisclosed (but tidy) sum.

In these parts (southern California) jay-walking is usually a tacked-on charge (e.g. "You're under arrest for public drunkeness, jay-walking, and littering.") used to quell rowdy tavern patrons.

[Vladimir]

You know what police force doesnt mess around? The russians. Watching a video where the russians set up a raid on a couple of red mafia drug dealers, they went STRAIGHT down to the ground when they saw the cops coming

Trust Yanks to be overly gung-ho.

Here you can jaywalk as long as it is not within 20m of a sactioned crossing.

*sigh* You didn't read the post right above yours did you?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So, let me get this straight, if there is a perfectly empty road with ne'er a tin cage in sight, just begging to be crossed, then your average 'freedom-loving' American would still rather walk to the crossing half a mile away in order to cross said road instead? They allow you to own and carry firearms, but don't trust you to cross the road? Crazy.

The enforcement of these rules seems like a waste of police time and resources to me, speaking purely as a 'freedom-hating' Brit of course. With the fines involved (I assume), it also seems like another revenue scam for the local authorities, which means that it will be coming to Britain soon!

Gotta laugh at the touchy responses from our US friends on here though.

lol, yes, the copse beat up everyone who tries to cross the street in

We jaywalk all the time, even in the presence of policemen. The absent minded professor probably tried it when it was too dangerous.

[Goofball]

I thought you lived in Canada.

I do, what does that have to do with it? We also have police officers here, believe it or not.

But they should not be able to do this in uniform, pretending to still be acting in their official capacity as police officers, when, in the case you describe, they are nothing more than Wal Mart employees.

Why not? They can still arrest people. They would be there to catch shoplifters not restock shelves or something.

You're missing the point. When they are being paid by Wal Mart, they are acting in Wal Mart's interests, not the interests of the citizens of the community, as they are when they are on the clock as cops.

If they are wearing their police uniforms and using their police authority while acting in Wal Mart's interests, it's basically a case of influence peddling.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with cops working second jobs as security guards, but at that point they should be wearing the uniform of their other employer, and not renting themselves out as police for hire.

And as far as I know, many private security firms have the power to arrest people, you don't need to be a cop to do that.

[Redleg]

And as far as I know, many private security firms have the power to arrest people, you don't need to be a cop to do that.

Every Citizen has the power to arrest those committing a criminal act. The part that gets hazy is how much force is a citizen allowed to do to arrest an individual.

Now many citizens will not attempt to arrest someone committing a crime because of the inherient danger in doing so.

Private Security Guards work under this particlur ability in the United States.

[Goofball]

Every Citizen has the power to arrest those committing a criminal act. The part that gets hazy is how much force is a citizen allowed to do to arrest an individual.

Now many citizens will not attempt to arrest someone committing a crime because of the inherient danger in doing so.

Private Security Guards work under this particlur ability in the United States.

I believe it's the same here. But I think private security firms have their people undergo specific training with respect to their powers of arrest, and the specific application of those powers. I work in a busy downtown core, and right accross the street from my office is a large, national retailer. I see their private security guards arresting people and holding them until police arrive all the time.

[Redleg]

I believe it's the same here. But I think private security firms have their people undergo specific training with respect to their powers of arrest, and the specific application of those powers.

Some might - I know that many don't. Ie for extra money I often do a little side private security work. The basic security guard is basically informed of their powers as being the same as any citizens.

I work in a busy downtown core, and right accross the street from my office is a large, national retailer. I see their private security guards arresting people and holding them until police arrive all the time.

Yep, and if they run, the security guard has to be very careful on how far he goes in restraining the individual prior to the police actually arriving.

[Hosakawa Tito]

In New York State, police officers are considered on duty 24/7 and are required by department policy and State Penal Law to uphold the law at all times. Their powers of authority do not end when they end their shift, which is probably why they are seen as desirable employees for other unofficial security jobs. However, one cannot simply take on a second job without officially requesting in writing to their department supervisor working that off duty job.
Peace officers have more limited authority, arrest powers equal only to that of the average citizen, and only within the scope of their special duties, such as corrections, park police, hospital security etc... When off duty the department doesn't require, nor desire, Peace officers to act as police officers because they don't have the extended training in Penal Law, arrest procedures and all the mountains of paperwork that must be filed correctly, that is required of police officers. One better be very familiar with the Penal Code on the use of force, especially deadly physical force, or one just might end up in jail.

[Duke of Gloucester]

n New York State, police officers are considered on duty 24/7 and are required by department policy and State Penal Law to uphold the law at all times. Their powers of authority do not end when they end their shift,

I would imagine that is true for the police in most countries. It certainly applies here...

which is probably why they are seen as desirable employees for other unofficial security jobs. However, one cannot simply take on a second job without officially requesting in writing to their department supervisor working that off duty job.

but I find this incredible. The scope for conflicts of interest between the new employer and the public is immense and it is no good saying that it is checked by the department supervisor. Who is he working for in his spare time?

As regards Professor Fernandez-Armesto, it does seem that the police over-reacted, but I am not that sympathetic. When you visit a foreign country you have to fit in with their rules and part of fitting in is to make sure you know what the rules are.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fairness bids me to link to the police report, which contrary to a link I previously quoted from, states that it was a uniformed police officer.

The police overreacted. But this professor does strike me as a belligerant arse. He may hold whatever opinion he wants on jaywalking, but if the law in some foreign country says you can't, than for bleeding's sake just abide by that.