Vehicle tracking

[Blodrast]

BG: 1M out of 20M motorists ? That's only 5%, I'd say that's a pretty good number! (i.e., "small").

When they do get caught, the fine is usually less than they have saved in the preceding years.

Yes the saving grace for those of us not in favour of this is that with things like this it is rarely ever enforced, and even if you do get caught I suspect the most that'll happen is a slap on the wrist.

Then, playing the devil's advocate here (because I don't in agree with this measure), may I point out that the "flaw" resides in the gov't not instituting higher fines for this ?

[Banquo's Ghost]

[Then, playing the devil's advocate here (because I don't in agree with this measure), may I point out that the "flaw" resides in the gov't not instituting higher fines for this ?

Fair point. The issue then becomes one of capacity. Since a substantial part of those that don't pay their road taxes tend to be on low incomes, they are also then unable to pay the bigger fines.

Inability to pay fines leads to imprisonment in the UK. The prisons are already full. Even if they added just another 30,000 road tax dodgers to the system as a clamp-down, the country would be awash with criminals being housed in chicken huts.

For example, a substantial proportion of women imprisoned in the UK are actually there for being unable to pay their TV licence (a kind of tax on viewing TV) and the fines accruing. Criminal record, family breakdown, delinquent children, ensnarement in drug addiction - not to mention the cost to the taxpayer of housing them - all the fruits of being too poor to pay for the TV.

[Blodrast]

You go to jail for not paying your TV licence tax ?!
I know little about the social situation in the UK, so then my question becomes: how on earth people who own cars, who can afford to maintain them (*), buy gas (or petrol, if you prefer ), cannot afford to pay whatever road tax ?

Also, while I fully believe you that prisons are full and represent a huge burden on the taxpayer, it's a bit hard to accept the argument that a new tax won't be put in place simply because we can't harbor more criminals in our jails. You see what I mean, don't you ? I mean, following that train of thought, people would feel free to do any crime after some point, because the jails are full and the system just can't take any more criminals and put them in jail.
I find it hard to swallow that can happen in a civilized country like the UK...

Can you explain a bit more, please ? I'm finding myself unable to tie all these loose ends...

[Hosakawa Tito]

I wonder if he pays his road tax?

[Banquo's Ghost]

You go to jail for not paying your TV licence tax ?!

No, you go to jail for not paying the fine imposed on you for not paying your TV licence. (i.e. You cannot pay the £150 tax, so here's a fine of £1,000 on top. Oh, you can't pay that either, Go to Jail)

I know little about the social situation in the UK, so then my question becomes: how on earth people who own cars, who can afford to maintain them (*), buy gas (or petrol, if you prefer ), cannot afford to pay whatever road tax ?

Well, it's the same in most countries. One can pick up a jalopy for as little as £100 (around 200 US dollars) and drive it perfectly well. Maintenance is an option for these people, but if they want to, they are often capable of doing much of it themselves or having a mate who does for a beer. Road tax is something of the order of £175 per year and insurance, especially for young men under 25 can be as high as £1000 for even an ordinary car. These last two are seen as optional.

Also, while I fully believe you that prisons are full and represent a huge burden on the taxpayer, it's a bit hard to accept the argument that a new tax won't be put in place simply because we can't harbor more criminals in our jails. You see what I mean, don't you ? I mean, following that train of thought, people would feel free to do any crime after some point, because the jails are full and the system just can't take any more criminals and put them in jail.
I find it hard to swallow that can happen in a civilized country like the UK...

Can you explain a bit more, please ? I'm finding myself unable to tie all these loose ends...

The issue is not "the jails are full, avoid making new criminals" but what offences create criminals that deserve jail. Imprisonment is a fantastically expensive method of creating new and better criminals. Without dragging this off down another prison debate, I think imprisoning people for their inability to pay fines is fat-headed, and stringent but non-custodial methods such as community service would be better.

Full prisons are the result of politicians taking the easy sound-bite to punish crime. The upshot is that really dangerous criminals (rapists, murderers etc) are now being shuffled around into open prisons (low security establishments with a high absconding rate) or even cleverer, housed in police cells being guarded by policemen who might be better off out catching villains.

My point for the thread is that this tracking database, even if it worked, is another sound-bite.

In the case of TV licences, it seems to me far more cost effective to exempt people on low incomes from paying the tax - or to remove the flat-rate tax (the rich pay the same rate as the poor) altogether and fund the BBC differently.

[Fragony]

I hope the finingmachine we call the police won't be inspired by this, they would love to milk us dry without having to move. Pretty 1985 this is for sure.

[KukriKhan]

I thought we all got rid of debtors prisons back in the 1800's. This sounds like a throw-back.

A lot of the taxes and fees we pay here are attched to tangible objects; the $10k auto you buy includes various and sundry taxes and fees, so you're paying up-front for usage. Then fuel is taxed (up to around 30% in some places) to cover road maintenance. Don't want to pay the tax? Don't buy a car, or drive one.

Not a perfect solution, since "the man" still gets your money, but tieing it to a tangible, voluntarily-purchased item sounds more easily enforceable than simply being handed another piece of paper saying "tax due; pay up or go to jail".

[Blodrast]

hmmm, mkay. Thank you for the explanation, BG.
Agree with the fact that community service would be more practical (and profitable) than jailing people for such stupid things as fines.

Well, it's the same in most countries. One can pick up a jalopy for as little as £100 (around 200 US dollars) and drive it perfectly well. Maintenance is an option for these people, but if they want to, they are often capable of doing much of it themselves or having a mate who does for a beer. Road tax is something of the order of £175 per year and insurance, especially for young men under 25 can be as high as £1000 for even an ordinary car. These last two are seen as optional.

Well, I dunno, in that case they could just confiscate the car when they catch them - rather than sending them to jail. That might (might!) prevent some people from getting one if they can't pay the associated fees.
Sure, the issue becomes more complex, in that now you're depriving them of the car which may be essential for them to get to work or whatever, but is depriving them of their car worse than depriving them of freedom ?

Hmm. Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.