Empowering the "Victim" classes. Double standards?

[Divinus Arma]

I have heard some discussion, in part because of MLKjr day, about the empowerment of so-called victims in United States culture. While there are many examples of this with the Handicapped and females, I would like to just discuss balck America at the moment.

Consider: Black Americans demand equality and cry racism at every opportunity, but yet we have "Black Entertainment Television", "Black Power", the "United Negro College Fund", the "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People", and "Equal Opportunity".


Didn't Martin Luther King Jr. envision an equal society where black Americans were an equal race, not a favored race?

Didn't Martin Luther King Jr. seek to erase divisions between us? So why do we see the self-selected "Black Leadership" creating divisions?


I believe that the existence of a "victim class" is essential to Democrat strategy in the United States. The Democrat agenda requires the existence of an underclass for the government to support, so should black Americans achieve the dream of MLKjr, the Democrats would be severely impacted.

Consider the relationship between Black leadership, Hollywood, and the Democrat elite:

Balck America today is portrayed as "tough", "strong", and "athletic". Hollywood perpetuates this myth with (a) movies and (b) music. The promotion of these mediums of entertaiment for blacks in the United States are a celebration of anti-social behavior and success through aggressive behavior (be that behavior legal or not).

Black youth in American culture views its opportunities for success as limited to athleticism, rap music, or gang violence. When black youth attempts to escape these boundaries and attain an education, they are broken down by their peer as a betrayal of the race. In other words, blacks who pursue a route other than that glorified by hollywood become ostricized as "trying to be white".

The "Black leadership" contributes to this by reinforcing the notion that blacks in America are oppressed and treated as inferiors. The truth is that "black leadership" would become irrelevant if blacks were allowed to realize their potential in this country. The argument that minorities require special representation is false. The argument that minorities are discriminated against based on skin color is also false. After all, where is the "Asian Leadership"? Asians as a minority in this country were forced into terrible servitude in the 1800s. They were virtually trapped by low pay and racial discrimination. But they had no MLKjr, and today Asians are renowned in the United states for their productivity and talent.

The success of Black Americans are discouraged unless that success came at some cost to the white majority. Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Thomas Clarence: All were hugely successfully but each receieved the scorn of the "balck leadership" and the Democratic Party. Not because they were Republicans, but because they were Black Americans who succeeded on their own without taking something away from the white majority.

The fact is that the Democratic Party requires a "victim class" and the liberal royalty uses its media influence and political spin to artificially and permanently perpetuate one.

[Vuk]

We are infected with a new form of racism today. One that favors minorities, women, and handicapped.

In an effort to find equality, we have slipped far into the opposite direction.

[BDC]

Although of course on average white people still do better...

[Goofball]

We are infected with a new form of racism today. One that favors minorities, women, and handicapped.

You know what? You may be right. But since that statement can only possibly be applied to the last few decades at most, it doesn't really bother me.

The pendulum has finally (after thousands of years of human history) swung the other way, and the previously downtrodden are getting a bit of a leg up.

Good for them.

In an effort to find equality, we have slipped far into the opposite direction.

As is always the case when a pendulum backswings, it's going to swing too far on the first pass, but what inevitably happens is the extreme on either end starts to narrow and it eventually settles comfortably in the middle.

Nothing to worry about, just sit back and relax.

[PanzerJaeger]

EDIT: Racism is not allowed. BG

[Ice]

America should have done what Abraham Lincoln wanted and sent them all back to Africa.

They are here now, so all we can do is support Condaleeza in '08!

How about we just deport all the racists?

[Divinus Arma]

How about we just deport all the racists?

Sadly, that would all include half of Black America. I have encountered more black racists than white racists by far.

[BDC]

How about we just deport all the racists?

We don't want them back...

[scooter_the_shooter]

Ok...lets not get in a debate about wether this favoring the "weaker" party is right or wrong.



but.... for those of us who thinks all the feminazi and black pride stuff is getting ridiculous what is there to do about it besides complaining.

[Del Arroyo]

I'm not sure I can take the same view on this, Divinus Arma. The expression of black culture does seem to have taken a turn for the worse over the past decade or two, but I am not so sure I see a top-down conspiracy here.

I even think it is possible that the decadence in the black movement in some ways parallels the decadence in American society in general.

I think we both agree though, that further steps towards integration will require more from the black side. I also think it's rather evident that the national black "leadership" is a sham, and that it is not in their interest to find real solutions.

[Cowhead418]

You know what? You may be right. But since that statement can only possibly be applied to the last few decades at most, it doesn't really bother me.

The pendulum has finally (after thousands of years of human history) swung the other way, and the previously downtrodden are getting a bit of a leg up.

Good for them.



As is always the case when a pendulum backswings, it's going to swing too far on the first pass, but what inevitably happens is the extreme on either end starts to narrow and it eventually settles comfortably in the middle.

EDIT: I'm sorry, Goofball, I overreacted.

On a more lighthearted note, this site gave me some good chuckles: http://feministing.org

[Goofball]

You know what? You may be right. But since that statement can only possibly be applied to the last few decades at most, it doesn't really bother me.

The pendulum has finally (after thousands of years of human history) swung the other way, and the previously downtrodden are getting a bit of a leg up.

Good for them.

As is always the case when a pendulum backswings, it's going to swing too far on the first pass, but what inevitably happens is the extreme on either end starts to narrow and it eventually settles comfortably in the middle.

Nothing to worry about, just sit back and relax.

I'll never understand this argument, it is completely absurd. I really hate it. It's like saying that whites should be slaves to blacks for past injustices. Why should I, as a white male living today, have to pay for what happened years before I was born? I personally did not commit any crime, so why should I be punished? Similarly, the women and blacks living today did not live back then either, so why should they get special privileges and rights? Your argument reeks of sexism and racism, but I guess that's ok, right? After all, only whites can be racist and only men can be sexist. Silly me. Hooray for double standards!

I'm sorry if you think my argument reeks of sexism and racism. I don't see it that way. I see the whole process now as a series of growing pains. Minorities now have a sense of newfound power that they never had before. It's only natural that they try to flex that muscle a bit and test the limits of it. And when those limits are reached, that's what will naturally cause the pendulum to swing back in the other direction, as I believe we can see happening right now.

It's not a question of justice or revenge.

And it's certainly not a question of whites being slaves. I didn't say that, and that can not possibly even be inferred from my statement.

Minorities have been oppressed for thousands of years. Finally, over the past few decades, the powered classes have realized that this should be corrected and have made attempts to rectify the situation. Some of the measures have been imperfect (and even divisive), such as affirmative action. Others have been just plain common sense, like making wheelchair access mandatory in buildings, or forcing employers to hold womens' jobs while they are on maternity leave.

But the key point is that these measures were not designed to punish anybody for past injustices. They were only meant to level the playing field.

And I have to laugh at you trying to compare your current "paying" to what blacks have gone through for the last few hundred years in North America.

It's like holding a birthday candle beside a oil well fire.

[Vuk]

I'm sorry if you think my argument reeks of sexism and racism. I don't see it that way. I see the whole process now as a series of growing pains. Minorities now have a sense of newfound power that they never had before. It's only natural that they try to flex that muscle a bit and test the limits of it. And when those limits are reached, that's what will naturally cause the pendulum to swing back in the other direction, as I believe we can see happening right now.

It's not a question of justice or revenge.

And it's certainly not a question of whites being slaves. I didn't say that, and that can not possibly even be inferred from my statement.

Minorities have been oppressed for thousands of years. Finally, over the past few decades, the powered classes have realized that this should be corrected and have made attempts to rectify the situation. Some of the measures have been imperfect (and even divisive), such as affirmative action. Others have been just plain common sense, like making wheelchair access mandatory in buildings, or forcing employers to hold womens' jobs while they are on maternity leave.

But the key point is that these measures were not designed to punish anybody for past injustices. They were only meant to level the playing field.

And I have to laugh at you trying to compare your current "paying" to what blacks have gone through for the last few hundred years in North America.

It's like holding a birthday candle beside a oil well fire.

"Others have been just plain common sense, like making wheelchair access mandatory in buildings, or forcing employers to hold womens' jobs while they are on maternity leave."
That is not empowering any one or giving anyone special treatment. That is acknowledging that there is a difference in sexes and that each has special needs - something that a lot say is sexist. People think it is wrong to differentiate or discriminate, when it is totally necesarry. (I considered not using the word 'discriminate' because of the bad rep the media has given it, but when you think of it, there is nothing wrong with discrimination. When you pick out eggs at the supermarket and choose one carton over the other because of the quality, you are discriminating. When you walk into a room and try to find someone of the opposite sex to talk to, and pass one over for one better built or looking, you are discriminating. etc etc Discrimination doesn't have to be giving one person a job over another because of their skin colour...just wanted to clear that up...)

Now let's talk common sense vs. PC BS.

PC BS: Blacks were slaves for a few hundred years so now all blacks get special treatment over whites.

Sounds fair right? Now let's try throwing a little common sense in and see what happens.

Common Sense:
FACT: 99% of slave traders were black and well before whites bought slaves from them they had been enslaving other blacks. That is, blacks held more black slaves than whites, and for longer than whites. Also, blacks starved, tortured, mutilated, and even ate their slaves - in the south where slaves were a valuable commodity, they were treated extremely well for the most part. (Which isn't to say there wasn't a lot of abuse - there was. That is where the "for the most part" comes in...)
FACT: A white slave trade was going on at the same time and there were more white slaves in America than black slaves. Also, the black slaves were treated fairly well for slaves, while the white slaves were worked to death and put into brothels.

Ok, Common sense threw out its facts, now let's see it argument.

Common Sense's argument: It is ridiculous to give people special treatment for wrongs done to their ancestors. I am part Irish and the Irish got treated a lot worse than the blacks - should I be raised on a pedastal? Anyone can did up some horrendous wrong done to their ancestors for a long amount of time, and we could go on forever with everyone sucking up to everyone. What matters is the NOW! It is too late to right past wrongs, and giving things to modern people completely undeserving of them isn't going to help those who suffered and died. What we can do now is make sure that every on IS (not was as that is to late) treated equally! Giving special treatment to a certain race or sex will only cause racial and sexual discourse. We will only complicate the situation more and more if we don't stop with the PC BS and use a little common sense. What ever did happen to that golden vision odf equality? "I have a dream!"

I don't know about you, but it seemed to me that Common sense whooped the pants of PC BS!

[Cowhead418]

I'm sorry if you think my argument reeks of sexism and racism. I don't see it that way. I see the whole process now as a series of growing pains. Minorities now have a sense of newfound power that they never had before. It's only natural that they try to flex that muscle a bit and test the limits of it. And when those limits are reached, that's what will naturally cause the pendulum to swing back in the other direction, as I believe we can see happening right now.

It's not a question of justice or revenge.

And it's certainly not a question of whites being slaves. I didn't say that, and that can not possibly even be inferred from my statement.

Minorities have been oppressed for thousands of years. Finally, over the past few decades, the powered classes have realized that this should be corrected and have made attempts to rectify the situation. Some of the measures have been imperfect (and even divisive), such as affirmative action. Others have been just plain common sense, like making wheelchair access mandatory in buildings, or forcing employers to hold womens' jobs while they are on maternity leave.

But the key point is that these measures were not designed to punish anybody for past injustices. They were only meant to level the playing field.

And I have to laugh at you trying to compare your current "paying" to what blacks have gone through for the last few hundred years in North America.

It's like holding a birthday candle beside a oil well fire.

I'm not comparing my current situation to the past. Where did I say that? I wasn't aware that the minorities today were alive thousands of years ago. How do they get the sense of this "newfound power" when they weren't alive while they were being denied it - so the thousands of years argument doesn't fly with me. I'm not acting like whites are victims, I'm just sick of racism and sexism being used as excuses for failures. People today are a hell of a lot less willing to take responsibilities for their actions, and I'm sick of their BS. I'm also sick to death of the argument that "we deserve the backlash" (maybe that isn't what you're saying but I've heard it plenty of times) Deserve it why? I wasn't aware that I was a slaveholder and denying women the right to vote. I'm not in any way even saying that whites have it bad, and I don't have much problem with the arrangements today, I'm just tired of the people that make me try to feel guilty for what I didn't do. Look at the Duke rape case for a prime example. Before any of the evidence came out, people were already condeming the "evil rich white boys" to decades in prison. Even after it was obvious they're innocent, I still heard plenty of people say they "should be punished anyway and those white boys deserve it after the way they treated blacks in the past." It's just one of my pet peeves./endrant

[JimBob]

It has nothing to do with party. The Republicans have as much of a victim class as the Democrats. Rural whites who are often being forced to sell the farm and change jobs and/or move to the city. The Republicans then play to their fears of slipping American values. Just like the Democrats play to the fears of their victims. The whole thing is about profit. I'd take a guess that most of the elite on the respective sides of the aisle really don't hate each other. They pretend to because they get votes, they get votes they get to be Senators and raise their own pay.

So why does the Black Leadership do what it does. Power, money. People donate to their charitable organizations. They work for those organizations and get to pay themselves from those coffers.
Why does the Christian Leadership do what it does. Power, money. People donate to their churches. They work for those churches and get to pay themselves.

It all comes down to money and power. The guys at the top are all the same. And all of us at the bottom eat it up and believe we are really that different. I think of myself as a leftist. What do I want in a politician? A responsible government that spends what needs to be spent and no more. Does its work efficiently. Is not oppressive. Reacts to the electorate. Is committed to the nation and its people.

[Scurvy]

We are infected with a new form of racism today. One that favors minorities, women, and handicapped.

In an effort to find equality, we have slipped far into the opposite direction.

I actually agree with this

achieving complete equality is close to impossible, but as Goofball says, after the momentum has swung either way a ferw times it should level up to about right..

Balck America today is portrayed as "tough", "strong", and "athletic". Hollywood perpetuates this myth with (a) movies and (b) music. The promotion of these mediums of entertaiment for blacks in the United States are a celebration of anti-social behavior and success through aggressive behavior (be that behavior legal or not).

I think this is true of a lot of cultures, not just black culture. "success through aggressive behaviour" and the "celebration of anti-social behviour" is common outside the black community.

Black youth in American culture views its opportunities for success as limited to athleticism, rap music, or gang violence. When black youth attempts to escape these boundaries and attain an education, they are broken down by their peer as a betrayal of the race. In other words, blacks who pursue a route other than that glorified by hollywood become ostricized as "trying to be white".

generally i think this is right, but again the escaping of boundaries being seen as a betrayal of race seems a bit much, a betrayal of freinds etc maybe, but i think your putting too much emphasis on the white/black divide. blacks who persue a route other than hollywood may well be seen as ostricized, a product of jelousy which comes with such things (common through all cultures) - but i dont think it is because of "trying to be white" as such.

The argument that minorities require special representation is false. The argument that minorities are discriminated against based on skin color is also false. After all, where is the "Asian Leadership"? Asians as a minority in this country were forced into terrible servitude in the 1800s. They were virtually trapped by low pay and racial discrimination. But they had no MLKjr, and today Asians are renowned in the United states for their productivity and talent.

racism still exists, it may be that the black leadership over-emphasizes this, and people are definately descriminated over skin colour (although increasingly less so) minorities need representation, the problem is that they are over-represented. The asian minority is slightly different because of both its reputation as productive and talented, and its generally higher educated group.

I dont know enough about american polotics to comment of the democrat party needing a victim class, although is does sound plausible,

[Divinus Arma]

Try this one on for size:

http://www.racematters.org/mcwhorter.htm

[Strike For The South]

Many minorites have a problem with taking responsibilty for there own actions. This is why despite more whites being in poverty more minorites are in prison. It isnt becuase they lack oppurtuinity its becuase they excepect everything to be handed to them. That unfortunatly isnt American

[Lemur]

Sigh. Let's slog through this one. I see DA has stayed "on message."

I will agree that there's nobody more dangerous than a person who is convinced that he/she is a victim. For someone with that mentality, there is no morality, no restraint, since the victimhood justifies all. Dangerous stuff.

That said, I hear a lot more we-are-the-victims coming from white Republicans than I do from anyone else.

Consider: Black Americans demand equality and cry racism at every opportunity, but yet we have "Black Entertainment Television", "Black Power", the "United Negro College Fund", the "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People", and "Equal Opportunity".

BET is privately funded. Are you opposed to people spending their money however they wish? Likewise, the UNCF is supported by individual and corporate donations. You have a particular beef with them? It's not your tax dollars at work, after all. NAACP is a shadow of its former self, and I don't see that they're any sort of major player on the national stage. So let's get to the real meat of your offendedness:

Equal opportunity. Are you objecting to the EEOC? To private usage? Aren't "activist judges" striking down racial quotas at universities all over the nation? What exactly are you fulminating against? We'll scroll on through your screed, looking for more detail.

Didn't Martin Luther King Jr. envision an equal society where black Americans were an equal race, not a favored race?

Didn't Martin Luther King Jr. seek to erase divisions between us? So why do we see the self-selected "Black Leadership" creating divisions?

The answer to the former paragraph is yes. The answer to the latter paragraph is, why would you act surprised? Any person who finds a lever for power will use it to maintain power. It's up to the "followers" to figure out that the leader is full of B.S., using divisions and hatred to push an unrelated agenda.

I believe that the existence of a "victim class" is essential to Democrat strategy in the United States. The Democrat agenda requires the existence of an underclass for the government to support, so should black Americans achieve the dream of MLKjr, the Democrats would be severely impacted.

That's both a broad and detailed assertion, with little to back it up. Are you suggesting that if no group of people felt victimized, there would be no Democratic party? Do you have anything factual to back that up? Are you asserting that the Democrats created, encouraged and/or maintain the "victim class"?

Consider the relationship between Black leadership, Hollywood, and the Democrat elite:

Balck America today is portrayed as "tough", "strong", and "athletic". Hollywood perpetuates this myth with (a) movies and (b) music. The promotion of these mediums of entertaiment for blacks in the United States are a celebration of anti-social behavior and success through aggressive behavior (be that behavior legal or not).

That's strange—I thought the black guy always died in the action film. Especially if he was best buddies with the white guy. And doesn't the black guy usually get killed in horror films? Or are you conflating rap videos with all of Hollywood?

Black youth in American culture views its opportunities for success as limited to athleticism, rap music, or gang violence. When black youth attempts to escape these boundaries and attain an education, they are broken down by their peer as a betrayal of the race. In other words, blacks who pursue a route other than that glorified by hollywood become ostricized as "trying to be white".

There's a real problem within black culture, but you're not doing anything useful by taking these broad swipes. And I don't get the impression that healing inner-city black culture is really a burning item on your "to-do" list. Fatherlessness is probably the single biggest issue, and I don't see it popping up anywhere in your post.

The "Black leadership" contributes to this by reinforcing the notion that blacks in America are oppressed and treated as inferiors. The truth is that "black leadership" would become irrelevant if blacks were allowed to realize their potential in this country.

See my earlier response to the shorter version of this trope.

The argument that minorities require special representation is false. The argument that minorities are discriminated against based on skin color is also false. After all, where is the "Asian Leadership"? Asians as a minority in this country were forced into terrible servitude in the 1800s. They were virtually trapped by low pay and racial discrimination. But they had no MLKjr, and today Asians are renowned in the United states for their productivity and talent.

The biggest obstacle facing inner-city black Americans has to do with family structure. Hundreds of years of deliberate destruction of family bonds has a retarding effect on a group. That, more than anything, explains why black Americans have not prospered as quickly as Irish, Asian or Hispanic immigrants. I also seriously doubt that there's anything the government or white boys like you and me can do about it. It will heal, I have no doubt, but in its own time.

The success of Black Americans are discouraged unless that success came at some cost to the white majority. Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Thomas Clarence: All were hugely successfully but each receieved the scorn of the "balck leadership" and the Democratic Party. Not because they were Republicans, but because they were Black Americans who succeeded on their own without taking something away from the white majority.

You know, if you had it in you to discuss this issue without making it into yet another Liberals Are The Source of All Badness in the World thread, I think we could get somewhere interesting. As it stands, well, you and Dinesh D'Souza have a lot to talk about.

The fact is that the Democratic Party requires a "victim class" and the liberal royalty uses its media influence and political spin to artificially and permanently perpetuate one.

You've made this supposition countless times across dozens of threads. Back it up with some real data, or go sit in the Monomaniacal Theory part of the bus.

[yesdachi]

Nicely written first post DA.

I think it has been mentioned here before but Michigan ditched affirmative action this past election (despite some protest the courts found in favor of the peoples vote and support the elimination of AA). I think the sooner we eliminate all the programs that are in place to segregate us the better.

It was gimmicky but the BlackWhite show last year on FX was interesting in the way they explored the “thru their eyes” perspective of the 2 races. There were no genuine revelations but just seeing the differences was fun.

Politically, I think the Dems play to the blacks and once elected don’t do anything to make good on their campaign promises. I think the prominent black leaders are as racist and close minded as any KKK member and perpetuate discord in order to maintain their popularity. It is easier to rally the masses by telling them that their troubles are because of “society”, i.e. Whitey, rather than their own poor choices.

I really don’t think there are as many “racists” as the talking heads would like you to think, IMO more people are just prejudice against certain kinds of people. I definitely have a prejudice against “urban gangsta” people regardless of their race. Thinking about it, I have a prejudice against lots of kinds of people (shudders at the thought of clowns, old people, priests, cyclists, etc.).

I don’t see any quick fix for the racial tensions that exists other than time and common sense. Look how much different blacks (and women) are treated today vs. 25 yrs ago vs. 50 years ago vs. 100 yrs ago. The world, encouraged by the west, has come a long way in a relatively short time. In our “microwave” world of immediate gratification it is frustrating to encounter something that we can’t just make better by flipping a switch or taking a pill, but equality is something that will only become better with time, IMO it gets better with each generation, and generations are not created with the flip of a switch.

I personally find it annoying to encounter a black person (it happened more often when I was in college) that acts like they are owed something by whitey. Hello, Michigan is in the north and filled with people descended from the people that fought to free the slaves. If all the white people wanted to keep slavery it surely would still be in place but there were white people that opposed it and risked their lives to free slaves, heck the town I grew up in was one of the most active stops along the underground railroad. But that’s ok; we don’t need a black leader to propose a “thank whitey” day, But a little less ignorance about the history of the blacks transition from slave to freedom would be nice.