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Thread: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

  1. #1
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I'd say there is no point... why?

    here's why!

    Cavalry, their main weapon, CHARGE, is broken. One of their main usefullness, chasing routers is totally ****** up.

    Horse Archers, the cantabrian circle, one of their cool features isnt properly working (all the time)

    Spearmen, their charge is quite odd, they get beaten by peasants, the reason probably a shield bug.

    Pikemen, total rubbish.

    Sword infantry, rather good but also affected by the shield bug.

    2handed axemen, their animation is broken so they are useless.

    Archers, most archers barely kill anything.

    Gunmen, very deadly but very annoying reform problems.

    so of all those units that M2TW claims you can use in battle... only 4 types actually work

    PEASANTS, HALBERD UNITS, 2HANDED SWORDSMEN and CANNONS...

    enjoy your game

    We do not sow.

  2. #2
    Member Member Mega Dux Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    I'd say there is no point... why?

    here's why!

    Cavalry, their main weapon, CHARGE, is broken. One of their main usefullness, chasing routers is totally ****** up.

    PEASANTS, HALBERD UNITS, 2HANDED SWORDSMEN and CANNONS...

    enjoy your game

    Wanna take army of peasents verses an army of knights if you're so sure cavalry is useless?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Sorry I simply don't agree.
    For me it is improved since MTW.

    Stéphane

  4. #4
    Member Member Afkazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Actually my army of crossbowman can kill stuff.
    And cav charges work for me.

  5. #5
    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    You know what you should do then, Stranger? Uninstall it. I've now gone back to RTW 1.5, and MAN, now I realize how much I've missed it. When I compare the battles there with M2TW's..... well, need I say more? Not to mention the atmosphere and immersion which is WAY better than M2TW's.

    At first glance my eyes were hurting, though. When finally again seeing RTW's graphics (both strategy and battle) and then comparing the two I really saw the amazing difference.

    Just wait until the game is totally patched and get the Gold Edition. That's what I'm gonna do.
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  6. #6
    Member Member General Zhukov's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Just to keep some perspective:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    Cavalry, their main weapon, CHARGE, is broken. One of their main usefullness, chasing routers is totally ****** up.
    That's not my experience. I get charges when I want them, and consistently perform charges in the middle of a dash. (Hint: go in a straight line the whole way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    Horse Archers, the cantabrian circle, one of their cool features isnt properly working (all the time)
    Always works for me, if the horses are in an unobstructed area.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    Pikemen, total rubbish.
    They're not rubbish if used for their intended purpose: breaking cavalry charges. Which they do with gusto. Also, look into Scotish Noble Pikemen that can go sword to sword with heavy infantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    Sword infantry, rather good but also affected by the shield bug.
    The shield works great when employed in the course of what sword infantry are best at: storming cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    Archers, most archers barely kill anything.
    Peasant archers with no experience maybe. Then again, the rules for bow archers are rather clear: shoot at lightly armored targets, preferably ones without shields. Crossbowmen, javelinmen, and some longbowmen, I understand, can puncutre hard armor and are even more useful. But the larger point is, in most scenarios archers are auxilaries that soften up the foe for the main event: melee. Considering the widespread nature of armor, shields, and cavalry in the game it would be unrealistic to expect huge body counts for plain archers in most scenarios.


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  7. #7
    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I'm inclined to agree more with The Stranger on this one.

    People can poo-poo all they want, but there is a shield bug. And a 2-hander bug. And a problem with cantabrian circle. And a bug with towers. And a bug with cavalry being unable to properly chase and engage routers. And a pike bug. And a gunpowder reforming bug.

    My point is, I still like playing the game, but I'd be a lot happier if, when I was deciding what units to train, I didn't have to run through my ever-expanding list of "this unit doesn't work like it's supposed to."

    As to cavalry charges, yes, it is possible to get good charges. But it requires a huge amount of micromanaging. I'm by no means a TW or gaming noob, but the only time I manage really good cavalry charges is in small battles, where I can devote a lot of attention to my cavalry units. In full stack vs. full stack battles, I simply don't have the time to do it.

    Maybe some of you out there are gaming gods who can get a perfect cavalry charge while eating a sandwich and reading the paper, but some of us aren't. The fact that they take so much time and effort to bring off perfectly takes a lot of fun out of it for me.

    I had a big battle last night where I thought "w00t! I'm finally going to get a good cavalry charge!"

    I was defending a siege and managed to take a unit of Christian Guards out the side gate and sneak them up behind a unit of Pavise Crossbowment who were stationary and firing at my wall defenders, oblivious to the threat behind them.

    I lined up my cavalry in extended double line well behind the x-bows, waited until the entire unit had come to a complete stop and were all facing straight at the target (like so, where C is Cavalry, X is crossbow, and V indicates direction each unit is facing):

    CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
    CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV







    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

    I single right clicked on the x-bows, and my cavalry began their stately walk toward the target, maintaining perfect formation. Then, as soon as they got within the charge radius, the horn sounded and my cavalry troopers became a herd of cats. Three or four of them broke formation and charged ahead, and the rest of them continued meandering. The few that had sped up plowed into the x-boxs and caused about 6 or seven casualties, then drew swords. This apparently caused all of the remaining knights to abandon lances and draw swords as well. The latter then walked slowly up to the x-bows, who, by now had turned to face my knights, and killed the first few who had been brave enought to charge in like men. I watched, stunned, as the x-bows (in melee mode) killed over half of my knights and took only about 5 more casualties themselves before I commanded my knights to turn tale and run.

    But you guys are right. There's nothing wrong with cavalry charges.

    The rest of us just aren't doing it right.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Cavalry needs to be fixed. I can't understand how some of you are so blind to it. Its messed up on three different levels.

    There is the charge problem. but with a lot of micromanagement, I can deal.

    Then, there is the Area of effect problem. At the moment the cav strikes, all the units around it get whacked pretty hard. Like tossing a grenade and watching everything in the explosion radius getting blown to bits. Sounds ok, except all you have to do to nullify a cav charge is walk in loose formation. What kind of logic is this!!?

    Then, there is the routing problem. Not just cavalry walking to the side and not attacking, but I've also had them chasing them down, then just start walking, as if they didn't want to maintain a constant speed.

  9. #9

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Personally, I've had units break formation during a charge, and still complete the charge. Once I figured out how to set them up, I haven't had any real problems.

    Still, Rome? Full of bugs, early on. Warcraft 3? Unbalanced early on. Starcraft? Could barely play it. Can't deal? That's gaming. Wait to get the game.

  10. #10
    Unpatched Member hrvojej's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I would also add the problems with the lances when charging enemy cavalry with your own cavalry. When you charge the enemy cavalry head on, nobody dies from the charge. If anybody can pull off such a charge in 1 on 1 battles so as to get *any* kills in a head-on charge before the swords are drawn, in a good formation on a grassy plain map without any terrain obstructions and with a beeline to the enemy cavalry, please let me know how you did it, because I certainly cannot make it happen.

    But yes, the unit cohesion problems (not just cavalry, I've had spear units that stretched over half of the battlemap) and now the shield bug are really starting to kill the game for me.
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  11. #11
    Member Member Satyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Hmmm, seems to me I said all this a couple of days ago, so you know that I agree. Actually I played a fine game of MTW:VI the other night. And my cav worked great, my huscarles were fearsome and I had a really fun time.

    I think a lot of the difference for me is that in order to fight battles at all effectively in M2, I have to pause all the time. I hating pausing! It breaks the flow up. But without it I can never control my units, they go willy nilly all over the bloody place. That is what drives me nuts about the game right now. In the end I expect CA will get the game working pretty well, but till then...

  12. #12
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvojej
    But yes, the unit cohesion problems (not just cavalry, I've had spear units that stretched over half of the battlemap) and now the shield bug are really starting to kill the game for me.

    Everyone saying RTW 1.5 is better, that happens in 1.5 as well. Not often, but still happens.
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  13. #13
    Unpatched Member hrvojej's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen
    Everyone saying RTW 1.5 is better, that happens in 1.5 as well. Not often, but still happens.
    I wouldn't know, since I didn't buy any of the RTW expansions, and stopped playing it altogether after 1.2. I ended up spending more time modding it for fixes than playing it and got bored of that. At least M2TW is better than the RTW I remember, that's for sure.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger
    I'd say there is no point... why?

    here's why!

    Cavalry, their main weapon, CHARGE, is broken. One of their main usefullness, chasing routers is totally ****** up.


    enjoy your game

    Try lining up your cavalry in position before you charge get them formed up. I actually like it that way better more realistic.
    And finally if you don't like it dont play it, might help with your tears.

  15. #15
    Lord Saika Magoichi Member Seign Thelas's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    The people who are complaining about cavalry charges in the game are basically wrong. You definitely are doing something wrong. I can easy get a charge when I want it. It helps to have your men charge head-on with the enemy for the most effect and least formation breaking. And in the Middle Ages, cavalry were mostly used for the initial charge to break the formation, anyway.

  16. #16
    Member Member Lord Ovaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Actually, I've been having a lot of fun with MTW2. That said, I still can't understand why the AI isn't near as good as it was in MTW. Most all of the problems we've whined about since the release of RTW didn't exist in MTW. OK, so the graphics have greatly improved, but just what effect should that have had on AI? Mounted skirmishing was a bit lame, and there were no true pike options, but overall, it was far superior in my opinion. Well, at least I seemed to have a lot more fun. I can't even reinforce my army now with what I want to bring onto the field. I either fight three stacks a AI alone, or put an army under AI command to get slaughtered. By the way, why is the AI on player's side so much dumber than on AI's side? Do they watch Monty Python?
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  17. #17
    Member Member General Zhukov's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    I was defending a siege and managed to take a unit of Christian Guards out the side gate and sneak them up behind a unit of Pavise Crossbowment who were stationary and firing at my wall defenders, oblivious to the threat behind them.
    I thought that was quite an amusing anecdote, and so clearly atypical, judging by my experience, that I decided to try out those Christian Guards.

    Out of 10 tests, the Guards executed 6 good charges using the single-click method. A few times, their formation was broken up by bolts and did a messy, ineffectual charge. Twice, a few of the lead units did the "hero" thing and ran ahead, screwing up the charge.

    But the really interesting results came when on a whim I set up one Chrisitan Guards vs. 4 Italian militia on the Arsuf map. Wiped out all four of those units using charge-and-withdraw tactics, and each charge was a double-click, or running charge. The one time I did a single-click slow startup charge, that "hero" thing came in and a few of them screwed it up.

    So, pending further tests in real campaigns, I'm recommending the dash-charge for lance using units.


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  18. #18
    Member Member Revenant's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I usually single click on enemy unit, but then press the "R" button for run long before they are in the charge distance. And It works.

  19. #19

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I agree. Chasing routers is a total mess. Equally annoying is how units stay in combat even after they are no longer fighting!!! On VH/VH it is ultra annoying as units tire out very quickly.

  20. #20

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    I'm inclined to agree more with The Stranger on this one.

    People can poo-poo all they want, but there is a shield bug. And a 2-hander bug. And a problem with cantabrian circle. And a bug with towers. And a bug with cavalry being unable to properly chase and engage routers. And a pike bug. And a gunpowder reforming bug.

    My point is, I still like playing the game, but I'd be a lot happier if, when I was deciding what units to train, I didn't have to run through my ever-expanding list of "this unit doesn't work like it's supposed to."

    As to cavalry charges, yes, it is possible to get good charges. But it requires a huge amount of micromanaging. I'm by no means a TW or gaming noob, but the only time I manage really good cavalry charges is in small battles, where I can devote a lot of attention to my cavalry units. In full stack vs. full stack battles, I simply don't have the time to do it.

    Maybe some of you out there are gaming gods who can get a perfect cavalry charge while eating a sandwich and reading the paper, but some of us aren't. The fact that they take so much time and effort to bring off perfectly takes a lot of fun out of it for me.

    I had a big battle last night where I thought "w00t! I'm finally going to get a good cavalry charge!"

    I was defending a siege and managed to take a unit of Christian Guards out the side gate and sneak them up behind a unit of Pavise Crossbowment who were stationary and firing at my wall defenders, oblivious to the threat behind them.

    I lined up my cavalry in extended double line well behind the x-bows, waited until the entire unit had come to a complete stop and were all facing straight at the target (like so, where C is Cavalry, X is crossbow, and V indicates direction each unit is facing):

    CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
    CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV







    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

    I single right clicked on the x-bows, and my cavalry began their stately walk toward the target, maintaining perfect formation. Then, as soon as they got within the charge radius, the horn sounded and my cavalry troopers became a herd of cats. Three or four of them broke formation and charged ahead, and the rest of them continued meandering. The few that had sped up plowed into the x-boxs and caused about 6 or seven casualties, then drew swords. This apparently caused all of the remaining knights to abandon lances and draw swords as well. The latter then walked slowly up to the x-bows, who, by now had turned to face my knights, and killed the first few who had been brave enought to charge in like men. I watched, stunned, as the x-bows (in melee mode) killed over half of my knights and took only about 5 more casualties themselves before I commanded my knights to turn tale and run.

    But you guys are right. There's nothing wrong with cavalry charges.

    The rest of us just aren't doing it right.
    Agreed 100%. This is my first time on this forum and ived played mtw2 about 3 weeks now (after coming from rome and the original mtw) and I noticed all of these things pretty quickly.

    And the thing that pisses me off the most is the messed up cavalry pursuing bug. They run right up the the routing enemy, and then stop...wait a while...and then scatter...come back together...and repeat until enemy gets away.

  21. #21
    Knight of Santiago Member baron_Leo's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    to answer the topic-question: to have fun. It is simple as that. I never ever recognized a lot of bugs in the game as long as I havent seen them here. But i still enjoy it. Pretty much. Gonna fail lots'a exams because of the game. That is the greatest bug.
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  22. #22
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    my cav charges work quite oke... i usually have great charges... but seeing my varangian guard getting slaughter by javelinmen totally messed up my will to play my great byzantine campaign or start a new one... cuz whats the point in playing byzw ithout varangian guard

    i usually just automanage because the battles are far from a challenge... their usually soooooo boring...

    We do not sow.

  23. #23
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    oh and i dont know if some of you have noticed... but some units can be retrained for eternity... the game just wont noticed that i already upgraded them for 1000 times...
    Last edited by econ21; 01-12-2007 at 09:16.

    We do not sow.

  24. #24
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I dont have any problem with cavy chasing routers, you just order them to move THROUGH the runners, not attack them. As they ride by those dudes on the horses reach out and smash some heads.

    Trust me, there is no sight quite as heartwarming as 40 peasants doing the syncronized dance of 'blarg im ded'.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  25. #25
    Member Member Ar7's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I hope that when they will work on the next Total War game they will leave the graphics engine as it is and work on gameplay. I don't know about others, but I don't care much about the graphics any longer, I hardly notice them because I am zoomed out most of the time. So I hope to read "The Best AI and diplomacy ever" in the next preview instead of "The Units now have better shield graphics"

    I had the game for weeks, but I can't get into it and have any fun, because not a single thing works the way it's supposed to, this is also empowered by an incredibly stupid AI. I guess I will try a few campaigns and then go back to Europa Universalis II (and soon III !!!), because that game is a true example of the fact that in strategy games gameplay matters and graphics are secondary, CA must have confused Total War with a first person shooter.

  26. #26
    Member Member Neoncat's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    Overall the whole game is badly bugged and I don't find funny to buy a new car which gasolin meter won't function properly. Or if I would refer to mtw2 you can drive that car, but nothing else really work the way they are ment. Unfortunately you can see same trend with all new games. At least I am waiting for next patch and not 'enjoying' this faulty product. Whatever you say, there are too many bugs that kill the enjoying part in this game.
    Neonbits will rule the world of gaming! \o/

  27. #27

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I am in total agreement with the original poster.

    I find myself more and more auto resolving the battles because trying to get the broken units to fight correctly is very frustrating. Hopefully the patches will fix the issues... *crosses fingers*. I have dabbled with the user mods to fix some of the issues but it is making my head spin trying to keep track of them all.

    With that said, I still enjoy playing the game. My one complaint is that 90% of the battles are now sieges which kind of sucks with the city/castle-related bugs (i.e. pathfinding, towers, etc).

    If they ever fix these basic problems this game *should* go down in history as one of the best games of all time.

  28. #28

    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    I think many people complain because the game is simply too difficult for them ... the difficulty to chase routers is realistic ... try to catch 40 men fleeing in bushes , woods ( never been on a horse ? )... come on is already too easy and many times no one escape from the battlefield ( and if they escape is YOUR fault !!! )

    there are 34394939 fixes for the 2H bug ... get them ...

    Pikeme are cheap , try to learn how to use them instead whining .

    Complaints about diplomacy ?? have you never read XII-XIII-XIV-XV century history ?? no ?? thats why you are whining ( and them why you dont get ultimate AI and stop whining ?? you do that for job ?? )

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is the point in playing a M2TW battle...

    This thread is probably going to degenerate into a pointless flame war.

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