Re Citadel: Why call this a discussion forum if...

**IceTorque** · 01-12-2007, 17:56

...all discussion threads about the negative aspects of Medieval 2 are closed?

**econ21** · 01-12-2007, 18:05

I assume you are referring to this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77300

A thread which starts off "cavalry are useless, archers are useless, why do I bother playing a M2TW battle?" is not a very promising thread. It's too defuse - and plain wrong - to get a decent discussion. When people then starting accusing the original poster of whining, it's pretty obvious how things are going to end up.

I have not closed specific threads on cavalry charges, on longbows, on shields, on two handed weapons, on unit cohesion issues etc. because by and large these tend to lead to constructive outcomes: test data is presented, good tactics advocated or bugs - even bug-fixes - identified. Battles between "fanbois" and "whiners" generate nothing but ill will.

Moving this thread to the Watchtower, as it is about forum moderation not M2TW.

**IceTorque** · 01-12-2007, 18:45

I assume you are referring to this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77300

Not just that particular thread, there are many more as you well know.

A thread which starts off "cavalry are useless, archers are useless, why do I bother playing a M2TW battle?" is not a very promising thread. It's too defuse - and plain wrong - to get a decent discussion. When people then starting accusing the original poster of whining, it's pretty obvious how things are going to end up.

Many of the younger members may not be able to express themselves as eloquently as some, but that does not mean they should be stopped from discussing their dislikes about the game by closing threads prematurely. Many threads have the odd you're a whiner post, and unless it does actually degenerate into a flame war the thread imo should be allowed to run it's course.

I have not closed specific threads on cavalry charges, on longbows, on shields, on two handed weapons, on unit cohesion issues etc. because by and large these tend to lead to constructive outcomes: test data is presented, good tactics advocated or bugs - even bug-fixes - identified. Battles between "fanbois" and "whiners" generate nothing but ill will.

The point I am making is, you close the threads before any flaming or any other rules are broken, and these threads do have some valid gameplay criticisms. As unfocused and poorly written as they may be, at least give them a chance to discuss their dislikes and hopefully they'll stick around and learn to ignore the trolls.

btw, those examples of threads you have not closed are about known bugs, and not about general gameplay dislikes, which are the threads I am referring to.

**Satyr** · 01-12-2007, 23:56

Ah, the mods are just a little gunshy after the RTW debacle the ensued once everyone realized how crap that game was. I was soooooo hoping that CA had realized that gameplay was important and M2TW would be back to their old standards. Now the mods don't want us to mention that it isn't, even though we converse in a kind and friendly manner. The Org used to be better than this too. Too bad.

**econ21** · 01-13-2007, 01:28

Originally Posted by IceTorque

Not just that particular thread, there are many more as you well know.

Links?

I don't close threads about general gameplay dislikes just because that is what they are about. Here's an example of such a thread (by TopHatJones that's just cropped up:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77381

The original post is very negative but is expressed in reasoned and fairly temperate language. It is a more promising basis for discussion than The Stranger's in the thread that prompted your complaint.

I kept the Stranger's thread open initially because it sparked off some posts telling him that some of his bugbears - e.g. cavalry and archers - could be very effective. Then it just started to turn into bickering and seemed unproductive.

Many threads have the odd you're a whiner post, and unless it does actually degenerate into a flame war the thread imo should be allowed to run it's course.

My judgement was that The Stranger's thread had run its course. People always have the option to start new threads on old topics, if they can contribute something more; as TopHatJones promptly did.

But I do disagree with you - I won't wait for threads to "actually degenerate into a flame war". The Org is not a place for flame wars. It is a place for friendly discussion and locking threads that are starting to ignite is one way to keep it thus.

Originally Posted by Satyr

Ah, the mods are just a little gunshy after the RTW debacle the ensued once everyone realized how crap that game was.

No, we just don't want a forum where it is acceptable to call other members' work "crap". Just because you don't like it, there's no reason to be insulting.

**sapi** · 01-13-2007, 02:02

@IceTorque
In your original post, you've said it all - this is a discussion forum, and the mods are happy to allow discussion to take place. However, no one here wants it to degenerate into flaming or something worse.

The goal of the moderators is to stop such an event occurring, not to clean up once it has. To this end, econ and the others have to make calls on whether they believe a thread to be constructive to the forum and able to lead to open debate, or likely to descend into thinly veiled attacks between members.

You may not agree on some of the calls that have been made, and believe that some threads should have remained open. That's your opinion; but you have to remember, the mods are here to stop a situation becoming potentially dangerous, and if that means that some threads are closed that may have avoided the spectre of flaming, then that's life.

Considering that econ in particular has been around the m2tw forum since its very inception, you have to trust that he has the ability to judge the mood of a thread and come to the correct decision about its future. From what I've seen, he's done this very well.

So remember when you tout your personal problems and this or that thread to support you - there are hundreds of threads where the right decision has been made, and because of that, you haven't had to see what can happen if it wasn't

**IceTorque** · 01-13-2007, 06:39

[QUOTE]Links?

Try this one. I posted a list of what I did'nt like, and why I did'nt like it. So whats wrong with that?
Or this one Irishman3 made a good suggestion which may have prompted a more constructive discussion, that is if it was given a chance.

I don't close threads about general gameplay dislikes just because that is what they are about.

The first link above proves that you do.

@IceTorque
In your original post, you've said it all - this is a discussion forum, and the mods are happy to allow discussion to take place. However, no one here wants it to degenerate into flaming or something worse.

Seems like only warm 'n' fuzzy discussions are allowed. I thought this was a total war forum not the Disney channel. Again, how can you divine what will happen till it actually happens?

But I do disagree with you - I won't wait for threads to "actually degenerate into a flame war". The Org is not a place for flame wars. It is a place for friendly discussion and locking threads that are starting to ignite is one way to keep it thus.

The goal of the moderators is to stop such an event occurring, not to clean up once it has. To this end, econ and the others have to make calls on whether they believe a thread to be constructive to the forum and able to lead to open debate, or likely to descend into thinly veiled attacks between members.

Many summers ago, I worked a second job as security in a night club, and we always tried to defuse a situation before it got out of hand. If I were to apply that type of reasoning we should have thrown out all patrons who owned a set of balls and had consumed alcohol, because we all know thats a dangerous mix, and might lead to trouble.

You may not agree on some of the calls that have been made, and believe that some threads should have remained open. That's your opinion; but you have to remember, the mods are here to stop a situation becoming potentially dangerous, and if that means that some threads are closed that may have avoided the spectre of flaming, then that's life.

Well gee, thanks for letting me know that flaming is actually dangerous.

Considering that econ in particular has been around the m2tw forum since its very inception, you have to trust that he has the ability to judge the mood of a thread and come to the correct decision about its future. From what I've seen, he's done this very well.

Yes, that'll earn you some browny points.

So remember when you tout your personal problems and this or that thread to support you - there are hundreds of threads where the right decision has been made, and because of that, you haven't had to see what can happen if it wasn't

Huh...personal problems...wtf, and whats the worse that can happen? nasty and err dangerous words maybe.

The closing of threads because it might turn into a flame war, indicates to me that someone is psychic and/or owns a crystal ball. If not, then perhaps the trolls are really in control, and can dictate which threads are allowed to remain open. Simply by flaming the OP, or dare I say, just think about doing it.

**Martok** · 01-13-2007, 07:08

IceTorque, even if the thread wasn't in danger of descending into a flame war (although it certainly appeared to be heading that way), it had already degenerated into little more than people simply bickering back and forth, with no real further substance being added. In cases like that, we *will* close the thread in question.

This is especially true for the Citadel, which right now is probably our most active forum. Given how busy it already is, econ and his henchmen (sapi, Tincow, & myself) want to keep the forum as clear as possible of threads that no longer serve a useful purpose. The thread in question (while maybe not yet having reached the point of being a flame war) definitely qualifies as being one of those threads.

**pevergreen** · 01-13-2007, 09:32

You should worship the mods (as i do! All Hail!

) they give up their time, are never insulting. They are nice to you when other people wouldnt be.

This group of mods is the best ive seen, and ive been to a lot of forums.

IceTorque i see you have been here for at least two years, if so, you should know, Mod Bashing is not a good idea.

**Banquo's Ghost** · 01-13-2007, 14:23

Originally Posted by IceTorque

Seems like only warm 'n' fuzzy discussions are allowed. I thought this was a total war forum not the Disney channel. Again, how can you divine what will happen till it actually happens?

Many summers ago, I worked a second job as security in a night club, and we always tried to defuse a situation before it got out of hand. If I were to apply that type of reasoning we should have thrown out all patrons who owned a set of balls and had consumed alcohol, because we all know thats a dangerous mix, and might lead to trouble.

Well gee, thanks for letting me know that flaming is actually dangerous.

Yes, that'll earn you some browny points.

Huh...personal problems...wtf, and whats the worse that can happen? nasty and err dangerous words maybe.

The closing of threads because it might turn into a flame war, indicates to me that someone is psychic and/or owns a crystal ball. If not, then perhaps the trolls are really in control, and can dictate which threads are allowed to remain open. Simply by flaming the OP, or dare I say, just think about doing it.

You kindly provided an example for me to demonstrate how moderators make their decisions.

The tone of your post quoted above, indicates quite clearly to me that you are likely to continue to post in a sarcastic and patronising manner. If you were posting in a forum I moderated, I would have a pretty reasonable basis for concluding that someone might take offense and the topic would rapidly degenerate into personal attacks and flaming. Now, it may be that this is unusual for you - in which case I would either edit your post or alert you. If it was typical, I would warn you. In either case, I may well close the thread if it was not likely to achieve anything more than continued bad feeling.

This is not a crystal ball, this is an awareness of posters and the way they phrase their arguments - and the likely mix of others only too ready to take the bait.

It is relatively easy to make criticisms constructive. Discussion is not the trading of insults.

**IceTorque** · 01-13-2007, 18:19

You kindly provided an example for me to demonstrate how moderators make their decisions.

The tone of your post quoted above, indicates quite clearly to me that you are likely to continue to post in a sarcastic and patronising manner. If you were posting in a forum I moderated, I would have a pretty reasonable basis for concluding that someone might take offense and the topic would rapidly degenerate into personal attacks and flaming. Now, it may be that this is unusual for you - in which case I would either edit your post or alert you. If it was typical, I would warn you. In either case, I may well close the thread if it was not likely to achieve anything more than continued bad feeling.

This is not a crystal ball, this is an awareness of posters and the way they phrase their arguments - and the likely mix of others only too ready to take the bait.

It is relatively easy to make criticisms constructive. Discussion is not the trading of insults.

Thats all well and good ol' mate, but what exactly does that have to do with the topic, which is censorship of any critique of medieval2? other than known bugs in the main medieval2 discussion forum. Although there is currently a thread running that has not been closed, and has had the odd intervention to keep things on track and reasonably civil. Good to see, the thread is named Disgusting.

Now, at the risk of sounding sarcastic and proving true your prediction based on my tone, your post is the perfect example of a troll, imo. i.e. you comment on my comments and not the topic.

**TosaInu** · 01-13-2007, 19:27

Originally Posted by IceTorque

you comment on my comments and not the topic.

Critique on any game can be voiced, but do not compare this forum to night club standards: different audience, different rules.

This thread is closed, feel free to start a new one or just a sound critique topic about M2TW in the Citadel.