tbh im sick and tiered of people crying on these forums about wot a bad game Medieval 2 is.
I have also been playing the series since Medieval 1, i never played shogun, but throughly enjoyed Medieval 1, Rome and now Medieval 2. ive been playing it since release and love playing it. The graphics are just damn shiny! and the gameplay while not brilliant can give u a real run for ur money on the higher difficulties.
As to the Bugs, well, wot game these days isnt released without a few bugs. AFAIK there are only 2 obvious and bad bugs with vinilla 1.0, that being Passive AI and the 2h unit bug. yet even with these bugs teh game is still playable and very very enjoyable.
As to the "obvious" shield bug, it clearly wasnt obvious at all and it took some guy doin testing on something else to realise it.
Lets look at other games released, Caesar 4, recently released as the sequel to Caesar 3 and old school ROme based strat game, was widely anticipated by fans of the series, yet was released with some glaringly obvious and horrific bugs that made the game unplayable. Crashes at random intervals, and 90% of the gaming community reported CTD's when trying to open trade routes, which is the major source of income in the game, unable to open trade routes = no income = unplayable game.
WoW is patched every few weeks, and while alot of it is content, alot of it is fixing bugs and errors in the code that was affecting. Unfortunatly this often ends up causing more distressing errors. In the recent 2.03 patch, players found that they could cap Battlegrounds flags from huge distances making defense in the battle grounds damn near impossible seeing as u didnt know who was capping the flag cos u couldnt see them.
i could go on with more examples but i will move on
Im currently in the middle of a computing degree, and i struggle to write programs a few hundred lines of code without bugs. How do u think the people at CA go writing code that is thousands possibly millions of lines long. have u ever stopped to think of it from that side of the coin, or do u just complain cos u didnt get wot u wanted.
The notions that CA got the game out without any Beta testing is ridiculus. while i admit there was 1 or 2 bugs that were glaringly obvious that were not picked up in beta, i dont feel that we can make outrageous claims that tehre was no beta, and that they just through M2 out the door so that it would make chrissy sales.
SO in summary Medieval 2 is a great game, both graphically and in gameplay, while it does have some bugs, the game is still very playable, and CA is working hard to release fixes to try and fix the errors that are prevelant in the game. i think the community needs to give the lads at CA a bit of slack, nobody is perfect, most especially those people who keep coming to these forums and complaining about the game. errors should be expected. unless u were willing to wait another year or 2 for the game to be beta tested 47 times to eradicate every single little minute error that the people at CA found.
Cheers Knoddy
P.s. pls note this is not a personal attack on the OP, im sick of all the people posting these sorts of threads on the .org
pps. pls excuse my lack of spelling and grammar :P
TopHatJones 00:46 01-13-2007
No one is asking for a perfect game. A completely perfect game would take so long to produce that the system it was designed for would be obsolete by release.
What I am saying is that some of those bugs that exist are WAY too significant to not have noticed if any playtesting was done and WAY too numerous and serious to consider the game finished.
This game is a Beta...you can play it and you could even enjoy it, but its NOT finished.
It is possible they DID playtest and DID notice the bugs and didn't have time to fix it before Christmas. But I don't accept that as a valid excuse anymore than I would accept raw meat b/c the chef didn't have time to cook it all the way before the lunch rush.
And if you spell like that all the time its no wonder you have so many bugs in your code...no offense.
P.S. Sometimes complaints are valid. No one is complaining because they just want more or they are greedy or something. We are "complaining" b/c we were sold something that does not work properly.
Its a big difference. Buying a widget and complaining because you want a better widget that has more features is MUCH different than complaining b/c someone sold you a widget that doesn't do everything a widget is supposed to do.
Knoddy: I'm not asking for a perfect game. But TBH the Sheild bug should have been obvious to the developers at the start, (it is a bug, i just remebered the M2TW defence chart, (seen it online, didn't get it with my game), it says their that the sheild provides defence and makes NO MENTION of it not applying in melee, yet it does for defence skill). Lets not mention how glaringly obvious the inability of ikemen to use pikes is or how 2-handed swordsmen can't beat working 2-handers of any other type without nerfing the other 2-handers stats so much it tottaly borks auto-calc.
Too much of this stuff simply shouldn't have been missable TBH.
On the other hand if the AI and 2-hander bugs where the only ones I wouldn't mind much. I too have ben enjoying the game, but it's a lot more fun when you mod the bugs out.
Originally Posted by TopHatJones:
And if you spell like that all the time its no wonder you have so many bugs...no offense.
Petty sniping like that is why these kind of threads tend to get locked. Your original post was fine, IMO. But don't let the thread descend into bickering between Org members.
Polite request to everyone: no calling each other 12 year old girls, saying each others' arguments are pathetic, saying people are "crying" etc. If you want to debate these kind of matters, please do so courteously.
Originally Posted by TopHatJones:
No one is asking for a perfect game. A completely perfect game would take so long to produce that the system it was designed for would be obsolete by release.
What I am saying is that some of those bugs that exist are WAY too significant to not have noticed if any playtesting was done and WAY too numerous and serious to consider the game finished.
This game is a Beta...you can play it and you could even enjoy it, but its NOT finished.
It is possible they DID playtest and DID notice the bugs and didn't have time to fix it before Christmas. But I don't accept that as a valid excuse anymore than I would accept raw meat b/c the chef didn't have time to cook it all the way before the lunch rush.
There's a MAJOR difference between developing software and cooking a steak, and I don't mean in the activities themselves. I mean the situations the people doing them find themselves in. Chefs still get paid during the lunchtime rush, no matter when they get those food orders out. In software, especially gaming, developers get paid for exactly as much work as the guy dumping money into the project is willing to pay for. If the man in charge says you release on a given date come hell or high water, YOU DO, or you don't get compensated for your work, may be in breach of contract, etc. If that means you release a buggy product like 1.0 M2TW is, and the boss doesn't seem to care, then it's what you do. It's entirely likely they knew about some or even all of the issues we're noticing before the release date of the game... but since the people that set important dates like that are usually not members of the dev team and refuse to listen to sense from said experienced developers, developers often find themselves forced to release things they know are not ready, without a damn thing to do about it. The fact is that people less motivated to put out quality products and more motivated to make money quickly are the people more often than not making important timetable decisions, decisions that used to be made by more-informed developers who controlled their own projects. This fact is IMO the single most detrimental trend in software development, as products will continue their downward spiral as long as people who do not care about the product are the ones who get to make decisions about it.
TopHatJones 03:51 01-13-2007
OMG guys I know any problems with the game, whether it was due to lack of testing OR lack of "time" to fix the bugs, is mostly or entirely the fault of Sega or whoever the "suits" are that make the decision.
Either they didn't allow them time to test, or they didn't allow them time to fix what they knew was wrong. It's irrelevant to me since the result is the same. I did not mean to say or imply that I had anything against the developers (or testers) themselves, b/c I know the boss(es) tell them what to do.
The point of all this is to voice my dissatisfaction with the decisions made (regardless of who made them or why) and let them know if it doesn't get fixed soon and stop happening, I will stop talking on the forums and start talking with my wallet. Hopefully the people who call the shots will get wind of this post and other posts which is they are made.
P.S. When people respond with "Its ok, stop complaining, the game is fun anyway and the mods fix those problems" all it does is encourage those decision makers (who don't care about the finished product) to keep cutting corners are putting out half baked products.
I've been disappointed as well.
When I buy a game, I want to play a finished product. I don't want to have to hunt around on forums downloading tidbits here and there to fix each problem that pops up.
Now, no - most of the bugs posted about on these forums, I didn't know they were there until somebody did some testing and figured out what was wrong. But I knew SOMETHING was wrong. I don't want to have to decipher cryptic behavior patterns behind how each unit works. If a unit is listed as "Spearmen", I want it to be able to kill horses. If a unit is listed as "Pikemen", I want it to poke things that can't reach it. If a unit is listed as "Two-Handed Whatever" I want it to dish out tremoundous amounts of pain to anything and everything.
I don't want to have to sit around wondering why my units with bigger numbers than the foe, can't beat them. I want these things to work intuitively.
I want to spend my time figuring out clever ways to use my units and my armies and my agents. Not spend it trying to figure out what exactly it is my units do, because the numbers and descriptions attached to them are useless.
When I bought the game I was excited - I played the game a good deal for a couple weeks - I started constructing guides for various portions of the game... but the more I played it, the more I found things not working the way I instinctively expected them to work. I got frustrated. I didn't know what was wrong - I just knew things weren't working correctly. I haven't played the game in a month or more now.
I'm hoping the second patch fixes these issues. And if it doesn't, I'm hoping they're already making plans for a third one that will. I'm simply very frustrated. I spent 50 bucks, and I want to play a finished game. I want the game to make sense. I don't want to have to install a patchwork of mods.
CA, Sega, whoever - finish the damn game would you?
I'm not going to make stupid claims - I'll probably still buy the expansion and the next Total War game. I just wish I didn't have to wait until six months after I bought it to get an enjoyable experience.
Just because there are a handful of gameplay bugs doesn't mean the game isn't finished. It IS finished, it just needs so fine-tuning, as most strategy games tend to.
You want to see what an unfinished game looks like? Check out Enter the Matrix, where the last level can be beaten by holding the mouse button down and setting still.
Try Star Wars: KOTOR 2, a game that stalls on the beefiest computers, has a plot that actually stops before the end of the game, and only got one patch before the P.O.'ed developers gave up on the game entirely.
Take a look at almost any licenced game ever published by EA, outside of the sports genre, anyway.
pevergreen 09:18 01-13-2007
Originally Posted by Malkut:
Try Star Wars: KOTOR 2, a game that stalls on the beefiest computers, has a plot that actually stops before the end of the game, and only got one patch before the P.O.'ed developers gave up on the game entirely.
Thanks, you just stopped me buying it
Message to whiner: Grow-up.
[Oh boy, I am so asking for it. :D]
Yeah, you are. Dont bag people, especially when a mod has
Told everyone to keep it civilised, no calling of whiners, saying that they should stop crying.
And triple so because you havent been here this long.
Be veeeeery good for the next few weeks
The Stranger 11:00 01-13-2007
it already says enough that a game needs to go to patch 1.6...
I'm sorry, but all those people that call other people whiners just because they espect something good for their money is rather stupid... When I buy a game I atleast expect that they gave a full hundred percent to make it as good as it can... and I don't doubt the developers... I will immediatly believe that they tried that, but the bosses only concern is to get it out for christmass...
WELL I BOUGHT THE GAME ONE DAY AFTER NEW YEAR! BACK AT YA... buncha*&%^$#@!!
Atleast half these bugs could have been discovered by giving the game for betatesting to a 1000 coveting gamers, they prolly wouldnt even ask money for (well $50, a free game)... just a month more time... just a month...
Well one obvious thing is, if the in game descriptions and guides do not match the actual in game abilities of the units, the product isn't finished.
And if the game takes 6 months to make work the way it was advertised... not counting a bug or two or a few bad units, but just have its general components and categories work together the way they should... by the time 6 months is up the game will be on the shelves for $20-30. Having purchased it at $50, and having to wait til the price drops for it to play as intended... yeah I will feel a little cheated if that turns out to be the case. Not only does it feel like we are helping to finish beta test the product we bought, but then it'd feel like we paid extra for the privilege to do so.
And to be honest, I'm more aggravated because I like the game, and I like TW games; most games that have given me issues anything like this in the past have ended up thrown out. CA is spending their credibility with me for the moment... and to be honest, til things are more complete I can't in good faith recommend this game to a friend. And I'd really like to. I'm hoping after the 2nd patch I'll be able to. If I recommend it to a friend but to not feel like I'm misleading them I have to say "But the halberds and pikemen can't fight horses, the peasants trounce spears, oh and the extra defenses you buy for your castles won't work..." I've just lost CA a sale by telling them that.
And it is a bit like an FPS where half the guns don't work... and then having a bunch of players say it's ok it's like that because half the enemies can't attack you either; obviously it's "balanced".
Originally Posted by
pevergreen:
Thanks, you just stopped me buying it 
Well, the beginning is kind of slow, and the end is made stupid by omission, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the middle. Can't say I felt too cheated, since it's still on my hard drive.
No, what really tore me up about that game is what's inside the game files. The cut content.
That last planet with no plot? It was going to be freakin' EPIC. Betrayal, love, death, revenge, redemption,
an all HK-47 level, for pity's sake . . . . why didn't Obsidian just personally come to my house and spit in my face? That would be better than cutting anything regarding HK-47!
Originally Posted by :
Well one obvious thing is, if the in game descriptions and guides do not match the actual in game abilities of the units, the product isn't finished.
That's an odd standard for completion to suggest. Especially since guides are often wrong on some of the details, being written, as they often are, from pre-release versions of the game.
Originally Posted by :
CA is spending their credibility with me for the moment
This is what really annoys me, however. CA is owned by Sega, now. Sega decides when to put out the game, not CA. I doubt the game makers suddenly decided that they hate you personally and wanted to hurt you on purpose by releasing the game before all of the kinks had been worked out.
The only part of this I can see CA being culpable for is removing the 2H animations when fans complained. They should have spent less time listening to people whine on the Internet, and more time fixing the game for the final release, moreso now that people are complaining about their attempt to fix something that was never actually broken in the first place more than they were about the inital problem. That they're willing to do something that obviously stupid for you should give you an indication about how much they care about their fans.
Originally Posted by :
And it is a bit like an FPS where half the guns don't work...
No, it's not. The only units that don't work are the two handed weapon ones, and that's been fixed. The rest of them do work. There may be some tactical balance and formation issues, but they can kill and they can die, so they work on most of the levels I need them for. It's certainly not worth going into histrionics over, and I can't see why so many of you are doing just that.
heroic hungarian 20:38 01-13-2007
i think mtw2 is 2wice as good as rome and as good a mtw1 i think its great
Originally Posted by :
Just because there are a handful of gameplay bugs doesn't mean the game isn't finished. It IS finished, it just needs so fine-tuning, as most strategy games tend to.
Just one thing...
YES, that DOES mean the game isn't finished. Just because other even crappier games have been released in the past, doesn't mean I should be satisfied with the condition of this one. If I buy a new car, and I can't get the windows to go down, have to open the passenger door from the outside and can only turn the wheel to the left - I'm not going to be placated because,
"well hey, at least it runs".
The reason I'm upset is because I'm a huge fan of this series - I love what they're trying to create. If I bought any other game in this condition, I'd just decide right there to avoid that company henceforth - unless they made some major changes. But I WANT to play the game that CA has envisioned. I'm GOING to give them my money... Alright now, let's practice the feudel system. I give you my loyalty - don't buttrape me in return.
I have to agree with the OP 100%
I'm a Total War: Rome vet, and I must say really enjoyed Rome and its expansion. I expected M2 to be a high quality game like Rome. Instead, within a few hours of play I started to realize the game was buggy. Also, some of the new features were interesting, but had a "slapped on at the last minute" feel.
Overall M2 is an OK game, but it would be so much better if it had been beta tested.
The Stranger 22:18 01-13-2007
Originally Posted by Kien:
I have to agree with the OP 100%
I'm a Total War: Rome vet, and I must say really enjoyed Rome and its expansion. I expected M2 to be a high quality game like Rome. Instead, within a few hours of play I started to realize the game was buggy. Also, some of the new features were interesting, but had a "slapped on at the last minute" feel.
Overall M2 is an OK game, but it would be so much better if it had been beta tested.
RTW? High Quality Game?
And Zuraffo, if everybody had such an attitude there would be no revulotions... there would be no freedom fighters... the world as we know it wouldnt be... you can say that you cant compare that to games... why not?
Ok I will post something constructive.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72874
Try this mod, it fixed most of the bugs and made the game fairly close to its intended purpose. If the shield bug bug you you can try out foz fix, although I am not totally convince it should be fixed that way.
As for complaining/whining/feedbacking/whatever term you fancy, unfortunately it will not change how games are release these days. It is now a trend, and game developers feels more comfortable in taking liberty with PC games with the ease of patching/modding (cummunity fixing bugs). It is, by all count, a sound business decisions and no amount of complaining will get that fix. Even if you boycott CA, it won't achieve anything. Why? Because you are just a part of (10%?) statistic, which belongs to the fan base they are prepared lose when they released a not-so-finished-but-playable-and-moddable product.
Even if enough people boycott CA and it folded, it still won't achieve anything. Another investor will buy up the franchise and the key people in the dev team, make another game company and continue with M3TW, which I am sure the original fanbase will still suck it up faster than I can say "hey" in hope that the change of "developer" (which in fact is really just a change of company name) will produce better result.
I am not trying to take away your right to complain/whine/feedback/whatever term you fancy; I am merely trying to point out any attempt to change how a company would act by such action is, ultimately, futile. Reflect upon this before you decide to waste any more precious internet space (I was tempted to use "your time" here but obviously the value of time in question is subjective to the interpretation of various people).
That said, I understand the need to get the frustration off your chest.
wow i knew about the weirdness of the shield ages ago, its quite (moderator edit:) messed up.[1]
[1]Note: partial asterisking out of swearwords is against forum rules.
Yep, they where going on about the way Spear units are totally useless in the vanilla game over on the MP forums before I even joined the forum. They didn't know what was causing it, (Shield Bug as it happens), but they though either something was bugged or a bad balancing decision had been made, and they where making their displeasure clear. Likewise I’ve seen plenty of posts in the Guides dissuading people from using most of the various shield units for some time. People DID know something was wrong, but they weren’t sure it was a bug, it looked like a bad set of balancing decisions mostly. People didn't like it and grumbled, but in the end they where willing to believe the devs knew what they where doing balance wise. Besides the obvious bugs where bothering them more than messed up play balance at that point. The Bugs where more important in their opinion as they represented fundamental flaws that could be messing up the perceived unit balance. They wanted those fixed before looking at the new balance and complaining about bad balancing. It’s only when most of these supposed bits of bad balancing have turned out to be bugs that they've let their frustration out.
DESTROYER! 02:00 01-14-2007
in all honesty, if i didnt register in the forums and read what you guys are arguing about i DOUBT i would "find" said bugs.
maybe the passive ai bug i would notice but the 2h animation bug? highly doubt it. i would instead blame my lack of strategic skills and continue playing and enjoying the game.
seriously. you guys who ACTIVELY look for bugs just ruined my game =(
Revenant 02:32 01-14-2007
Originally Posted by DESTROYER!:
in all honesty, if i didnt register in the forums and read what you guys are arguing about i DOUBT i would "find" said bugs.
maybe the passive ai bug i would notice but the 2h animation bug? highly doubt it. i would instead blame my lack of strategic skills and continue playing and enjoying the game.
seriously. you guys who ACTIVELY look for bugs just ruined my game =(
OMG, I played the game only for a short time and was surprised how some expensive and supposedly elite units were beaten by "weak" units, judged by their stats/price. It was obvious something is broken.
And now you blame people who discovered what is broken for ruining your game?
pevergreen 04:00 01-14-2007
The meaning he is having, is if you go round searching for bugs, and post them up, people like him read about and then are influcenced in the way they play. if no one searched for bugs, people would assume it is meant to be like that, and have more fun.
Hurin_Rules 04:26 01-14-2007
I've played all the TW games extensively, just bought and installed MTW2, and my first impressions...
Yech. This is a real step backwards for the entire series.
Blurry, pixelated graphics in the unit screen at the bottom. My cavalry won't charge home. Why do Saxon infantry have Norman-style shields? Why is everything given a late-medieval look? There seem to be too many non-combat units now-- merchants, princesses, etc. are all back and still not useful unless you love micro-micro-management. Poor AI still.
Wow. All I can say is, after anticipating this for a while and playing for one hour... I'm bored and frustrated.
Yech.
Lord_hazard 12:19 01-14-2007
I agree with the op. Ive been playing the TW series all the way back to shogun. And i must say that this game is the buggiest one yet which is ofcourse due to the rushed retail just like almost any other game today.
Its not only the bugs that irritate me, but also I think that the game is imbalanced, my main concern is that, even though i have never played mp, that certain main factions are alot stronger then the rest like say the French against the English. The French has almost the same type of units that the English has (they have archers that are extremely close to the longbowmen, whom i think isnt nearly effective enough in the game as they were in rl.) and then a whole lot more.
Think the main problem is just like in RTW that the devs take a factions historical elite units (like the urban cohorts whom were never used in large scale) and make them recruitable on a huge scale just like the normal soldiers (like the French scots guard). I just feel like this takes away alot the of the English firepower, that the enemies can train units of equal strengt as their best unique units. I mean the English were feared for the use of their longbows, other countries were not. There are so many other archer units in the game that are just as good or even better then the longbowmen. This again comes down to a rushed retail without the player testing to improve balancing.
Derfasciti 15:09 01-14-2007
I agree pretty much on everything except for the heir selection. I mean, it is the friggin' middle ages. Do it the right away and kill your son if you don't want him to inherit the throne
I am playing this totally unmodded except for 1year=1turn now. I just avoid
2handers and just get angry when my cavalry messes up.
Originally Posted by
:
Originally Posted by DoppOriginally Posted by :
Originally Posted by JFC
I posted this in another thread. But I think it's more relevant here.
I have to say I am amazed at the sheer amount of tweaking/downloading/modding/hunting around the forums for said downloads that I have had to do JUST to get the game to work as it was probably intended!
Chances are though, half the "broken" stuff you would never have noticed anyway if the modders hadn't drawn your attention to it.
The game is still great despite the flaws. I'm on my eighth grand campaign already.
Yes, again I'm reposting.
I agree, i bought this game "on my way out" so to speak, expecting i had not need to wait for reviews and such. i was wrong.
Next-time, ill wait a week or two
devs would be wise to make a statement on is matter. its their fanbase and people feel ripped off. problem is, in the gaming industry, you can rip off your customers and get away with it. there should be an international gamers customer organisation
Originally Posted by TopHatJones:
It is possible they DID playtest and DID notice the bugs and didn't have time to fix it before Christmas. But I don't accept that as a valid excuse anymore than I would accept raw meat b/c the chef didn't have time to cook it all the way before the lunch rush.
But lets say the customer does not know its raw meat and thinks its cooked?
Now lets that there are numerous customers who want meat and will pay top price for it. You can always say im dearly sorry would you like Me to cook it or take a refund.
But if there are signifigantly lower customers after the lunch rush the shop doesnt nearly as much money.
So here i offer MY views on the characters who are purchasing or not purchasing
1.People who buy it pretty much real close to the release date
1a.Those who actually return it (very few most likely)
1b.Those who complain about it but not return it because (a.They Are past the return date. b. they are just lazy and would just rather wait for a Patch and play something else in the mean time.
2.THose who wait for the price to drop.
(as with most major consoles they customer waits for a pirce drop since a.ITs cheaper we all like money b.they expect all the "bugs" to be worked out
3.Those who have read bad reviews and just not bought it.
Usually ill fall in the 2 catergory
I fell in the 1 for this
to be honest i havent had much of the complained problems. Ive played MP and have had pleasurable enjoyment.
I did kinda notice how those Dismounted gothic knights chewed through those armor 26 scots But its a 2h sword i would expect that
To anybody who feels compelled to complain about the "complainers" - I say, massive hypocrisy.
If you feel that "complaining" is a waste of forum space - then don't indulge in it yourself.
And to the various persons claiming that any game produced with modern technology will have to go thru a process similar to this... All I know is that my two favorite game series are Total War and the various D&D games run thru Bioware and now Obsidian. And I have not been nearly as frustrated with those rpg's as I have with RTW and MTW2. NWN and NWN2 are both quite complex games - and neither had me quitting in frustration.
pevergreen 07:00 01-14-2007
NWN has me quitting in frustration. Angry because it works in DND online, but not NWN
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