Vote on the final faction

[Solo]

I don't think so, just wait till Conn arrives...

Don't wake him ! Well, I'll try to summon him for the sake of the high king :P

[Solo]

He has some trouble with the forum but allowed me to quote something concerning Ireland.

Ireland from a gameplay perspective provides a relatively unique selection of troops in the region it exists. Ireland had a fairly large population, access to good trade routes, and resources to exploit, but suffered from problems with loyalty of the nobility which I hope, we can imitate, and should provide a relatively unique experience to play as. It should not be easy to become very powerful as Ireland, but it should also hardly be an impossibility.

From a historical perspective, Ireland is complicated. Ireland was neither a disunified anarchic state, nor was it usually a whole united kingdom. It was, however, recognized as a kingdom by themselves, and there were periods of unity. It can be said that it was on the eve of their completion of soldifying the kingdom the invasion of Norman mercenaries began under Diarmait mac Murchada, who had fled from Ireland when even many of his own vassals would not support him against the new high king Ruadri Ua Conchobair. In the earliest part of the period, contested kingship was common, and issues of loyalty were the main concern, but there were contests over it for a reason; they recognized that the high king was a real position, not an honorary title, having recieved recognition from the church authority (the creation of the title 'Scotorum Imperator', Emperor of the Irish), and having that title carried real authority. Kings did pay homage to the High King, though, of course, there were those who refused or flat out rebelled and tried to usurp him.

Ireland had been steadily carved up between three emerging royal houses, who intermarried heavily, until it was effective that the only high kings tended to be drawn from those houses. Hopefully we can imitate early period issues with a realistic manner of their being low loyalty nobles should they belong to a house outside of the high king's, helping to represent Ireland as a single faction, but realistically simulating dynastic disputes. Ireland would be able to raise a decent number of soldiers, but, of course, if their commander abandons you, they won't do you much good. The problem of playing the Irish should be initially maintaining stability, and thus keeping your army intact to stave off potential invasions and strengthen your economy to precipitate invasions of foreign territories.

The Irish did engage in crusades and came to the aide of foreign allies (such was the case of Diarmait; he had loaned Henry II his fleet for his campaigns in Wales, and Henry owed him something in return, financing for him mercenaries to invade Ireland with, when Diarmait was forced to flee to England). The internal strife of Ireland was not so much more than that of early medieval Scotland (and less so at times), nor that of any country experiencing civil strife. Ireland was in a formative period, prepared to become a stable kingdom, cut short by the invasion. It should not be mistaken for an anarchic no-man's-land, nor idealized in a nationalist vision of what it could have been. The truth is in between. The kingdom did exist though, there were effective high kings, and they did play a role in the world in their time. Ireland was good for trade, a center of scholarship into the mid-1100s, and was steadily reforming their army into a more then-modern manner; for example, the office of taísech marcslúaige was created; the commander of the king's cavalry, reflecting the growing importance of mounted warfare, which was not lost on Ireland. Ireland earliest in the period is not backward, it's a relatively well off country, benefitted from centuries of scholarship in the Greek classics and other works that were tirelessly by the Irish. The Irish imported such books from Byzantium, and maintained relations with them, and Irish missionaries were prevelant in Europe for a long period.

The historical perspective, while clear that Ireland was probably at the time a minor player (though had once been far more major, due to their control of much of western Europe's only real schools outside of Italy, before such things proliferated more widely in a steadily Christianized Europe), it was not destined to be. Ireland was not stagnant, it was growing, it is an island 2/3rds the size of Britain, as a united kingdom, it would control a population at times larger than contemporary England at times, and have access to mines, trade routes, and manpower that could make them a genuine contender. Minor as it is though, it would not make it without firm gameplay reasons as well; many other minor factions have perfectly fine historical basis, but would bring little unique or be impossible to play properly. Ireland has unique soldiers, would be a challenge, but not impossible to play, and would offer a more unique experience in a region otherwise mostly populated by more standardized feudal armies (Scotland and a handful of others discluded; Scotland would, for quite a time, be fairly similar to Ireland, with problems of loyalty and selection of Gaelic soldiers for their armies, though augmented by others more readily).

On a final note, if it seems hard to consider Ireland conquering a huge swath of Europe, it was no more likely Scotland or an Italian city-state or other small-but-present factions would. That isn't a reason to disclude them necessarily.

[Antagonist]

@ Antagonist- yes the above factions are in, and 1 faction can be voted in, out of three.

I see, I look forward to it.

Mini-essay thingy about Ireland

Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows"

Good luck

Antagonist

[NagatsukaShumi]

I see, I look forward to it.


Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows"

Good luck

Antagonist

That is indeed an intention of ours, to educate people on the lesser knowns of history as they too were important, Ireland is also a MAJOR part of English history and certainly an interesting faction as Conn explains.

[shifty157]

Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows"

Good luck

Antagonist

I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

[Antagonist]

I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

Yes, I get that a lot. Sometimes I wonder whether I should acting like a complete psychopath on some other forum, to justify the handle.

Good luck again, and I look forward to hearing about the other possible factions.

Antagonist

[DukeofSerbia]

Kingdom of Ireland – I commented this but impression is pretty negative. I mean Kingdom of Ireland with fictive high kings?!
Moorish Amirate – Why not Emirate of Morocco? Almoravids and Almohads where from Morocco.
Sultanate of Rum – Didn’t Süleyman I ibn Qutalmïsh establish Seljuk Sultanate of Rum in 1078 when he broke from Great Sultanate of Malik Shâh and de facto became independent in 1092 when Malik Shâh died?
Principality of Kiev – Title of ruler of Kiev was Grand Price.
Abbasid Caliphate – they were under Great Seljuk 1055-1156. Governor in Iraq in 1073 was Saad ad-Duwla Gauhar Ayin.

Kingdom of Cilician Armenia – Nice.
Khwarezmid Empire – emerging I assume.

No Serbia?! Some facts from XI century as majority identify Serbia with Nemanjic dynasty which is wrong:

1016 Ivan Vladislav, Bulgarian tsar, killed Prince of Zeta St. Jovan Vladimir in unknown coditions and soon Roman Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus and his army overrun Serbian lands as he already defeated former Bulgarian tsar Samuel and annexed Bulgaria. After Basil’s death in 1025 Serbs started to rebel. The first major rebellion happened in 1035 led by Prince Stefan Vojislav. Rebellion was put down and he was captured and sent to Constantinople, but he somehow escaped from prison. New rebellion happened in 1037 in Hum and was quickly spread to Adriatic coast and Zeta. 1038 Serbian rebels annihilated Imperial army under Duke Georg Provat with Roman vassals (župan of Raška/Serbia and ban of Bosnia) in hill-sides of Hum mountains. Seven Roman generals (starategos) were captured and only one third of Imperial army survived.

Major battle and decisive victory for Serbs happened in 1042. Prince Stefan Vojislav with his five sons waited new Imperial army led by Duke Michael (prefect of Dyrrachion) near Rumija mountain. Stefan Vojislav set up an ambush and Imperial army was encircled and annihilated in surprise night attack in their camp mostly by Serbian archers with support of slingers. Duke Michael escaped slaughter of his army but soon died in way to Dyrrachion.

Vojislav second son Mihailo will became first Serbian king recognized by Pope 1077 as King of Zeta (Dioclea) and Hum. Pope Gregory VII sent crown. His state was in Zeta (coast and parts of inland in modern Montenegro), Hum (modern Herzegovina) and modern Northern Albania. Capital was in Scodra. Romans couldn’t anything and after Mihailo’s wife died his new wife was a niece of Roman Emperor. In 1072 in Macedonia Bulgarian nobility rebelled and eldest son of Mihailo Konstantin Bodin was proclaimed as Tsar of Bulgaria under name Peter. Rebellion was put down due bad logistics of Serbian army under Konstantin Bodin and Bulgarian nobles (they splited in two directions after coronation). Konstantin Bodin was captured and imprisoned but his father paid to Venetian merchants who released him from prison bribing Roman guards.

1081 Normans under Robert Guiscard besieged Dyrrachion and in battle was Konstantin Bodin and his army as Roman ally. But he did nothing. He just watched battle and retreated (basically he betrayed Romans). After battle he made alliance with Normans and cemented it as his wife become Jaquinta, daughter of a Norman lord in Bari. King Konstantin Bodin aggressively expanded his dominion. He conquered Serbia, Dalmatia and Bosnia and technically vast majority of Serbs lived in one state. Bishopry of Bar became Archbishopry. Later he made peace with Romans but his vassal in Serbia Grand Župan Vukan started new agrresive politics against Roman Empire continuosly raiding them. After his death (c. 1101-2) state was divided by his sons who were in less or higher level in constant civil wars. This situation used Roman Empire to attack and conquer parts of Serbian lands. By this time, Serbia (Raška) became dominant as Zeta weakened in civil wars. Several grand župans were de facto vassals of Rhomania but they regularly rebelled and raided Roman lands, mostly with Hungarian help.

Now you want primary sources about it. Good.

It is worth mentioning the Crusaders' journey under Raymond of Toulouse in the winter of 1096/1097. They travelled for almost 40 days through "Slavonia" (Sclavonia), from the western border to Scutari where they were met by King Bodin.
About that you can read in Raimundi de Aguilers canonici Podiensis Historia Francorum qui ceperunt Iherusalem, Recueil des historiens des croisades (Paris, 1866), p. 237.

About Mihailo, Bodin and Vukan you can read in Anna Comnena Alexiad. This is link to online text of Alexiad: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...a-Alexiad.html Just hit Ctrl+F and type words Michaelas (Mihailo), Bodinus (Bodin), Bolcanus (Vukan), Dalmatians (Serbs) and Dalmatia (Zeta).

And about Serbs in XI wrote also:
John Scylitzes (the 11th century) Ioannis Scylitzae synopsis historiarum (Berolini, 1973), p.353
John Cinnamus (the 12th century) Ioannis Cinnami epitome rerum ab Ioanne et Alexio Comnenis gestarum, rec. A. Meineke, (Bonnae, 1836), pp. 102-113, 203-204, 212-213, 288
Nicetas Choniaces (the 12th century) [i]Nicetae ChoniataeHistoria[i], rec.J.A.V. Dieten (Berolini, 1975), pp. 90, 92, 136.

All of them mention Serbia in their works many times.


But, YOUR mod, your decisions.

[Solo]

High kings of Ireland aren't fictive. As I already said somewhere, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain was probably more powerfull than the king of France in 1073 (who couldnt even leave Paris without being endangered).
About the moorish Amirate and other faction name, just read our FAQ. (but what's your point about the Seljuks and Kiev, you mean you wouldnt include them ?)
If we cant include the abbasid caliphate then we cant include any vassal of the HRE, it's that simple. Thus you should complain about Bohemia and Genoa as much. That means any mod including Portugal, Bohemia or Burgundy isnt realistic to you ?

[Ultras DVSC]

I thought that MA was dead......

Nothing of the sort, we'll get into the swing of things very soon. Presentation of the third and last faction of the vote is planned to be published on Sunday as usual.