Vote on the final faction

[Kavhan Isbul]

Caledonian, I appreciate your sense of humor - Ireland comparable to Byzantium. LOL

I find it refreshing that balance is needed everywhere, except the Balkans and that the only bad nationalists are the Balkan ones - the Irish nationalists are great! But anyway, thanks to you guys PM2TW already scored at least one vote from me aganist your mod with its ironic name (apparently historical accuracy is the last thing you are really interested in) in next year's Hall of Fame voting. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way, so keep up the good work.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Note the words: "on a smaller scale"

And yes, Ireland was in a way comparable to Byzantium. It was a comparison originally made by our Irish expert, Conn (and he really is an expert). He compared Ireland to Byzantium and the HRE, as although Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom, it suffered mostly from the disloyalty of its Generals, and similar internal problems. Just like Byzantium and the HRE.

Hurry up and say something here Conn!

[Kavhan Isbul]

Caledonian, can you please enlighten me, how exactly Ireland compares to the Byzantine Empire? Perhaps Dublin was a Constantinople of sorts, with hunders of thousands of citizens? Or maybe Ireland bravely stood on the way of Asian invaders, preventing them from overrunning Europe? And it was Ireland that played a crucial role in preserving the cultural legacy of the Ancient world?

Common, you really do not want to turn this into a historical iscussion, because it is a debate you cannot win: Serbia and Bulgaria had a far greater impact on Medieval Europe than Ireland or Seville. In fact, I personally find the whole idea of comparing Balkan Empires with insignificent short lived kingdoms offensive. And the gamepley reasons about unit rosters and balancing issues make no sense either - balance is also needed on the Balkans and Balkan rosters can be just as unique.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I am comparing Ireland to Byzantium (Ireland being on a smaller scale), as it was a wealthy and powerful Kingdom, and it did have a very unique and ancient culture, completely unlike any other you'll see in MA. However, just like Byzantium, Ireland suffered from internal problems, disloyal Generals and the like. That is what stopped it from expanding and becoming more powerful. Do you not see my point? I am not trying to say Ireland was as powerful as Byzantium, but it was similar as a faction in many ways.

Obviously, you like that central European area of the map, and would like to see Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc as factions. But its just not possible if you want to achieve overall balance in the mod. It's similar to when people argue to have 10 Italian factions, just because there were so many independant city states. Balance need to be achieved across the map. Not to mention that Serbia was barely a Kingdom at the beginning of MA's timeframe, its time to shine came much later. That's why we didn't include other factions such as Burgundy. They may have became significant eventually, but to have them as factions in 1073 when there were others more deserving of the slot would not be historically accurate. MA is about balancing historical accuracy with gameplay and a balanced campaign map.

Even still, Ireland is deserving of a faction slot. You have fallen into the trap of thinking it was nothing but a poor, unintersting backwater on the edge of civilisation. If Ireland had not suffered from its internal problems, it had the potential to field armies to match those of the Kingdom of England. As the player, you would have the opportunity to stabilise Ireland, and let it reach its full potential, which was massive. Should we not include the HRE just becuase internal problems held it back?

[IrishArmenian]

Ireland is only laughable to you because of the lack of translated historical documents that plauged Irish history in the past. However, I vaugely remember in the 1980's (?) many documents were found regarding medieval Ireland. The three crowns were very much alive at the time of the game.

[Kavhan Isbul]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

BALANCE

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list.

BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience

The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one.

You'll see that statement is completely incorrect when we add the third faction tomorrow.

This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

That's just mindless, hateful talk, and there's no place for it here. You have nothing constructive to say and you don't like this mod, don't spend time on its forums.

[IrishArmenian]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

I must be Western-Centric because...wait a minute!
I'm not the man to see about any faction west of Anatolia.
Now, I am aware of Bulgaria and Serbia, but the delicate situation is that if we include one, people will complain as to why we didn' include the other. I am all for having another Orthodox faction, but we only have a 30 faction limit (seeing as me need independents).
I wish my name did not convey my bias, however, bear with me. Ireland is also a large gameplay factor, to counter England becoming a powerhouse in the first 100 turns. They also have their own distinct flavor, and very few other mods are incorporating them as a faction. The great thing about mods is that there is a plethora of them, and each one has its own eccenctricites, tweaks, taste and personality. I suggest trying many mods, and rotating between a few to prevent burnout. That, in my mind, is the most enjoyable experience.