New Unit - What is it?

[MeinPanzer]

One suspects the elephant-riders were trained specialists and in any case they were both important for the continued effectiveness of the elephant team (since their job included keeping infantry trying to swarm the beast preoccupied) and far as one can tell virtually impossible to replace in battlefield conditions in the case of casualties, ergo minimizing losses among them would come across as solid military thinking.

There's no reason to think they required any more training, or were any harder to replace, than other akontistai. There wasn't a whole lot to firing from the back of an elephant, other than as you say trying to keep enemies as far away from the beasts as possible, but they almost always had special guards of dozens or hundreds of men to help with that anyway. They would be far easier to replace than, say, a heavy cavalryman. The minimization reason for the heavy defense (which often included hanging shields on the sides of the howdahs) was simply to keep the men up top operating as long as possible.

Moreover, given the expenses incurred by a single battle-trained elephant to its owner the cost of providing the fighting crew with decent body armour would obviously be so low in copmarision as to be nigh irrelevant, and any beast large enough to be able to carry both the fighting-platform and its occupants on its back would presumably not even notice the weight added by body armour.

Both of these points are true, but you also have to think of some other problems. When you have heavy armour on, or armour at all for that matter, your flexibility is greatly reduced. Even the linothorax would have reduced flexibility and made actions within a howdah turret more awkward. When you have four men crammed into a tiny box on the back of an elephant along with all the weaponry they will need, and they all have to be throwing javelins or firing arrows, armour would limit their range of movement, and probably wouldn't provide an amount of defence proportional to their limited mobility (considering the already heavily protected turret walls).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, we disagree then about the body armor for this unit I guess. Worse things happen at sea, I always say.

We are using a type of body armor that is common for some types of units for this faction, but there is no direct evidence that elephant riders wore them (we certainly admit this). You think it's too much of a stretch, while we think it's speculative but possible, especially given our lack of certain knowledge of the unit. You say Nikonorov's reconstructions were incredibly poor, and you say that it's impossible to have this armor for this unit. You apparently know more about the unit than the only peson who has ever published widely on the matter and more than any of us. Entirely possible, but keep in mind that in reconstructing all the units we have, that we do the best job we think we can, and we certainly do have to speculate on some, like this one.

Have you gotten a chance to play a campaign in EB yet MP? Hope so and hope you've gotten some enjoyment from it.

[MeinPanzer]

We are using a type of body armor that is common for some types of units for this faction, but there is no direct evidence that elephant riders wore them (we certainly admit this).

Please provide me with a single shred of evidence that composite scale cuirasses were worn by any units within the Seleukid army.

You think it's too much of a stretch, while we think it's speculative but possible, especially given our lack of certain knowledge of the unit. You say Nikonorov's reconstructions were incredibly poor, and you say that it's impossible to have this armor for this unit.

I don't say that it's impossible, but I think it's unlikely- and I think if they wore any armour, it was a linothorax, like almost every other light element of almost every other Hellenistic army in existence at this time.

You apparently know more about the unit than the only peson who has ever published widely on the matter and more than any of us. Entirely possible, but keep in mind that in reconstructing all the units we have, that we do the best job we think we can, and we certainly do have to speculate on some, like this one.

I think having armour on this unit is fine. Any speculation on my part about whether they wore armour or not is just speculation. However, having this unit wear a composite cuirass is just entirely inaccurate and illogical.

And while Nikonorov covers all the evidence for Baktrian elephants, he omits and misinterprets many, many sources for his coverage of other elements of the other armies he discusses in his book.

Have you gotten a chance to play a campaign in EB yet MP? Hope so and hope you've gotten some enjoyment from it.

I enjoy both EB and RTR, but I find it always detracts from the experience just a little bit when I see a unit which is unnecessarily inaccurate.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Trying to be good natured about this. Oh well.

[QwertyMIDX]

It's still not a Seleukid unit, it remains Baktrian/Indo-Greek, and it's just scale, not a composite cuirasses. With the evidence of scale armor on indo-greek coins, the lack of evidence as to the body armor (of any type) wore by greek troops on elephants we went with something that we feel is reasonable, and allows a bit of variety into the equipment of the elephant riders.

We have the greek style rider for 6 factions as well as merc skin. IIRC only one, the Baktrian/Indo-Greek has scale, one has chain (Seleukid as mentioned) 3 have some form of linothorax, one has leather, and one has padded cloth. I don't feel we are being massively inaccurate here...

[keravnos]

Well let us take a deep breath...

1. Baktrians had a lot of money
2. Their not so friendly neighbours used scale armor
3. The Baktrian Greeks Indian subjects had and still do a big tradition in iron casting, use and manipulation of iron.
4. Elephant corps, (Panzer corps of the time) would have the very best in terms of the people fighting from the "Thorakion" of the elephant. Be it weapons, and thorax (at least where needed)
5. Linothorax could still be used, but since they had the money to spend, why not go for the best quality armor available?

=



Good enough for us.

So far as the unarmored mahut thing, well, it was something common for the people of the time, and place. The mathuras, which were conquered after heavy fighting in 180 BC but rebelled in 100 BC used their elephants in the way shown below...



and a reconstrucion of the Mathuran elephant coprs...

[Sarcasm]

Kos, can't seem to able to see those photos there mate. Anything special I gotta do to see them?

[MiniMe]

Now that's a very strange way to seat on the elephant's back.
I know, what I'm talking about, because I did ride on indian elephant's back in Thailand and in Sri Lanka.
You just can't sit there as on horseback like the javeliner shown above, there has to be a flat platform (IMO)

[Zaknafien]

no there doesnt, ive sat on an elephant's back myself, "bareback" as it were.

[MeinPanzer]

It's still not a Seleukid unit, it remains Baktrian/Indo-Greek, and it's just scale, not a composite cuirasses.

But you do have the Baktrian Pheraspidai wearing a composite cuirass.

With the evidence of scale armor on indo-greek coins, the lack of evidence as to the body armor (of any type) wore by greek troops on elephants we went with something that we feel is reasonable, and allows a bit of variety into the equipment of the elephant riders.

For the reasons I stated before (that it's only clear from the coins that Indo-Greek kataphraktoi wore scale) it is not reasonable to put a very expensive piece of armour on what is essentially a light soldier, even if composite cuirasses were known to have been worn by Baktrians. I understand you want variety, but don't you still want to keep it accurate?

We have the greek style rider for 6 factions as well as merc skin. IIRC only one, the Baktrian/Indo-Greek has scale, one has chain (Seleukid as mentioned) 3 have some form of linothorax, one has leather, and one has padded cloth. I don't feel we are being massively inaccurate here...

As I mentioned before, the Seleukid riders shouldn't be in mail, either.

Well let us take a deep breath...

1. Baktrians had a lot of money
2. Their not so friendly neighbours used scale armor
3. The Baktrian Greeks Indian subjects had and still do a big tradition in iron casting, use and manipulation of iron.
4. Elephant corps, (Panzer corps of the time) would have the very best in terms of the people fighting from the "Thorakion" of the elephant. Be it weapons, and thorax (at least where needed)
5. Linothorax could still be used, but since they had the money to spend, why not go for the best quality armor available?

1. True.
2. True.
3. Yes, Baktrians had contact with Indians, who did make use of iron, and iron scale cuirasses. However, it is very clear from Indian texts that only the king wore scale armour.
4. I wouldn't call it the panzer corps of the time at all. Many people have made the comparison of elephants in the ancient world to tanks in the modern world and it's a very poor comparison. And I don't necessarily think they demanded "the best" for the soldiers fighting from the back of the elephant. As I'd said before, it's very apparent that the skill needed to fight from the back of an elephant was fairly minor.
5. Because there is no evidence that any troops other than rich aristocrats made use of scale armour.

You can argue this all day, but the fact of the matter is that in the Seleukid, the Baktrian, the Indo-Greek, and the Mauryan Indian armies any scale or lamellar armour that was worn was done so by the aristocracy who were almost without exception mounted (be it on a horse or, as an Indian king, a chariot or an elephant). And I doubt that in a force like the Baktrians, with what could only be described as a limited pool of valued Greek aristocrats with training and equipment needed for the hetairoi, they could spare some for riding on the back of an elephant.

Now that's a very strange way to seat on the elephant's back.
I know, what I'm talking about, because I did ride on indian elephant's back in Thailand and in Sri Lanka.
You just can't sit there as on horseback like the javeliner shown above, there has to be a flat platform (IMO)

The Sanchi reliefs are very clear in showing that the Mauryans did not employ a howdah of any kind on their elephants and that they all rode "bareback" (though, of course sitting on a carpet).