Samurai Warlords XXIII

[Tomisama]

I wish you could get credit for the winning a single battle, but he way we have been scoring this is that the Province goes to the highest score on that map.

In the two great battles fought today the wins were not enough to overcome scores of the first games on these map in this Champaign. But they did finalize the previous scores with Master CBR and Lord Yuuki gaining new Provinces.

Congratulations gents

There is only one more map already initialized for this Campaign, and we are very close to the next revision of this great mod. So we may soon be moving into a test mode, and then announcing a major upgrade with new maps, and a new competition.

If you would be interested in being on the testing of version 8, please post here so you can get on the list, and we can get this done as soon as possible. Thanks

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I still think we can do this every Sunday :-)

[R'as al Ghul]

That's 36 players on that list. Plus Asanorin and KensaiSilvan who joined later. 38. Where are you guys?

We still meet regularly on Sundays, 18:00 GMT.

Oh and Tomi-san, now that you rejoined and everything works nicely why don't we make a new start with this?



R'as

[Tomisama]

Possible, but the original art work is gone, so will have to start from scratch.

Will also start from scratch on how the ranking system works, applying more directly to an individuals performance. The goal being to make it so that everyone gets recognition for their accomplishments, even if they are not the top scorer



P.S. Did you ever see this (kinda korny )

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k5...1167185708.pbw

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Possible, but the original art work is gone, so will have to start from scratch.

Will also start from scratch on how the ranking system works, applying more directly to an individuals performance. The goal being to make it so that everyone gets recognition for their accomplishments, even if they are not the top scorer



P.S. Did you ever see this (kinda korny )

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k5...1167185708.pbw

very well said. something like this I could certainly attend and have fun with, along with the rest of us Samurai Warlords Beta 8 Folks

It ain't korny Tomi, Hell, I would make something similar with my Warman8's Death Fields and Castle 2_5_2!!


Would it still be based on Most Kills in One Game, or All the Games, for the Top Scorer?

[Tomisama]

First a little history.

A number of scenarios have been proposed for a Samurai Warlords campaign styled competition. Some more elaborate than others, but what finally succeeded was a very simple idea.

Sixteen Provinces were drawn up on a map of Japan.

Each Province was represented by a specific game Map

Every Sunday the highest scorer of the day’s Team battles on that game Map, was awarded Lordship over that Province, and given an Org Badge to honor the achievement.

When all of the Provinces had Lords, the player with the most Provinces was given the title of Master, and “special” Badge to commemorate the occasion.

Scoring was derived from Total Kills minus Total Losses, according to UglyPolar’s TW Logfile Browser 2.0's definition of those two numbers. At first we were just looking for the high scorer, and then quickly changed to the high scorer from only the winning Teams of the day.

(to be continued)

[Togakure]

Sounds good to me. This rewards those who make it to the games and play well, and doesn't get messed up if only a few are able to come--a good structure for our small but committed group. I also like that it takes losses into account, not just kills.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Extacly. Even if you didn't get a pronveince, you still had fun.

[Tomisama]

(continued from above)

After the first contest, we started a second. This time with an added martial arts ranking system based on the total number of Provinces won, overlapping from one contest to the other. Almost as soon as the ranking system was added, I realized that it should have been applied differently. That contest was halted due to technical difficulties, and it has taken up till now to get ramped up again, but it is going to happen

Note: Now the ranking system described below, is totally separate from any map campaign, that will be announced shortly. And this system does only involve kill scores. But please trust me, as a matter of practicality and functionality, we must proceed this way.

This time it will be a nine level system, based on the highest kill score archived to date in any Samurai Warlords battle. Ranking will be from 0 to 1600, in increments of 200 (White 0, Yellow 200, Orange 400, Violet 600, Green 800, Blue 1000, Brown 1200, Red 1400, and Black 1600.

Taking the scores from last Sunday as a starting point, the Samurai Warlords participating would be ranked as follows.

Note: I have no figures for Tosa on Mizu 15, and Masa on Saigawa, for some reason?

But from what I do have:

Lord Yuuki 1031 level 6 blue
Lord Tosa 930 level 5 green
Lord Ras 675 level 4 violet
Warman 703 level 4 violet
Masamune 626 level 4 violet
Tomisama 595 level 3 orange

[Togakure]

We had five players in the foyer, so Tosa watched the first game (Mizu 15 according to the log file I have), and I watched one (Saigawa).

Victor kills are logged and defeated kills are not?

I'm fine with whatever in regard to rankings. Personally, I will try not to get caught up in pursuit of routing enemies in order to get my kills up. It's easy to get dispersed all over the map doing this, and to end up too spread out to effectively support teammate(s). By the time you regroup your army, troops are exhausted, and it takes a very long time to rendezvous with teammates and close the contest. My focus will be to systematically drive the enemy from the field in tandem with my team.

My goals are to enjoy the games and company, improve my personal game, and to improve my ability as a team player. If I only kill 200-300, but am instrumental in providing morale support to a frontline team mate by protecting flanks or rear and ensuring that his troops don't rout at a crucial moment, then I will be happy. If I get 1000+ kills and sqeak out a victory, but my team mate is decimated and routed early, I wouldn't feel very good about my game.

No criticism intended, just sharing my point of view. Is this modeled after belt colors in western martial arts? Interesting, the parallel in potential effect on strategy.

Looking forward to tomorrow. Drisos has obtained MTW Gold Edition and will be on today hopefully. I will work with him. If anyone who can host SW can come on before it gets too late in Europe, you might find us around, ready (hopefully) and willing to play. My IM addy is in my profile now, so contact me that way if you can't find us in the foyer. I have Drisos on MSN.

[Tomisama]

We had five players in the foyer, so Tosa watched the first game (Mizu 15 according to the log file I have), and I watched one (Saigawa).

Victor kills are logged and defeated kills are not?

Thanks Masa, for the watcher report

And in this new ranking, "all" kills are logged, win or lose.


Watching everyone’s scores for quite some time now, I believe the ratings will have little if any impact on how people play. Maybe newer players will be encouraged as they watch their skill level increase, and those longer in the saddle get rewarded for their study and diligence. But for the most part because of the wide 200 point span of each level, it will only provide a general enough reference (high, medium, low), to know what you might expect from an individual player.

This comes in handy as a community building tool. On the one hand, saving face of a lower ranking player who gets trounced by a higher ranking one (to be expected). And on the other, providing incentive for higher ranking players to offer greater assistance in team play, and to raise their visibility so their advice might be sot after.

Later when Provinces are at stake, ranking may play it’s more important role in balancing the competition (it’s real purpose). Still working on this, but I can tell you now that there has never been anything like what’s coming. Imagine a never-ending-competition for starters, and there is more

[Togakure]

Sounds interesting. I look forward to seeing how things work.

If I just wanted to play, and not be ranked, and not be included in the map competition, is that going to exclude me from some games? With a small group like this, which plays one day a week, that would be a bummer. It wouldn't be the first time though, so no big deal.

Clan issues aside, the primary reason why I changed my account name here is because I prefer no titles, class distinctions, rankings, awards, etc.. I am definitely the odd man out with this preference.

[TosaInu]

This time it will be a nine level system, based on the highest kill score archived to date in any Samurai Warlords battle. Ranking will be from 0 to 16

Hello Tomisama,

We've played some battles at large and medium unitsize, does the 1600 come from one of those?

[TosaInu]

If I just wanted to play, and not be ranked, and not be included in the map competition, is that going to exclude me from some games?

Hello Masamune,

It's not me to make that call, but I doubt.

The idea of such things is to attract extra people, not to exclude.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Can't wait to play tomarrow, this is going to be fun :-)

[Togakure]

Hello Masamune,

It's not me to make that call, but I doubt.

The idea of such things is to attract extra people, not to exclude.

Hello TosaInu:

Indeed. I am hoping that those who want to be ranked can be, and those that would prefer not to be will have that choice too, and still be able to play often, without being left out.

Warman, I share your anticipation--looking forward to some fun again tomorrow.

***

Edit:

What maps are more commonly used for SW MP? It would accelerate my usefulness on Sundays to practice on them a bit during the week.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Six large maps for SamWars: O_Mizulands17, O_Mizulands18, T_Morigahara, T_Konkyo, T_Patches and T_Patches][.

http://www.mizus.com/files/files/MTW/Maps/SW-maps1.zip

Edit: hello Masamune. Depends who hosts and how many players there are. For 1v1 or 2v2: Woodedroads, Tano, Hachiman Hatake or any of the other small maps. For 3v3 or 4v4: a large map, there aren't many converted to SamWars yet: Horselands, Rivercrossing, Saigawa an O_Mizulands.
But we can host anything available.

[Tomisama]

Sounds interesting. I look forward to seeing how things work.

If I just wanted to play, and not be ranked, and not be included in the map competition, is that going to exclude me from some games? With a small group like this, which plays one day a week, that would be a bummer. It wouldn't be the first time though, so no big deal.

Clan issues aside, the primary reason why I changed my account name here is because I prefer no titles, class distinctions, rankings, awards, etc.. I am definitely the odd man out with this preference.

Masamune-sama, your wish shall be honoured of course, and it wont keep you from any games

Hello Tomisama,

We've played some battles at large and medium unitsize, does the 1600 come from one of those?

The 1600 came from a default unit size 4v4 VI game (not a Samurai game). A very high bar I know. And it may require a perfect-storm of intense training, perfect teamwork, supporting terrain, and overly ambitious opponents, but it is achievable.

Maybe a 1k top would be best

White 200, Yellow 300, Orange 400, Violet 500, Green 600, Blue 700, Brown 800, Red 900, and Black 1000?

Open to suggestions. Let me know what you think…

[Togakure]

that's great, Tomisama-san ( ) . I shouldn't worry so much. Thank you for tolerating my weirdness. Living by principles when you have unusual principles is difficult.

Perfect TosaInu-san, thanks for the tips about the maps. Puzz3D-san said he would be working on some more maps. Is there no end to the commitment? Most respectable.

Polishing my weapons and armor, brushing my horse, inspiring my men, and then making a stop at the local temple to offer prayers (for beer, my fridge is empty). See you all in a bit.

[TosaInu]

The 1600 came from a default unit size 4v4 VI game (not a Samurai game). A very high bar I know. And it may require a perfect-storm of intense training, perfect teamwork, supporting terrain, and overly ambitious opponents, but it is achievable.

A high bar indeed, do you have a replay or logfile of that one Tomisama?

Maybe a 1k top would be best

White 200, Yellow 300, Orange 400, Violet 500, Green 600, Blue 700, Brown 800, Red 900, and Black 1000?

Open to suggestions. Let me know what you think…

It's more likely that one can get a color, yet it's not too easy and thus it may be more motivating.

[Tomisama]

A high bar indeed, do you have a replay or logfile of that one Tomisama?

Unfortunately no. That was several years ago in a RW practice game for a CWC competition.

But I can tell you that the secret to big scores is captures. A well orchestrated pincer operation can net hundreds. Don’t kill em, surround em

Maybe we will get back to that some day

[TosaInu]

But I can tell you that the secret to big scores is captures. A well orchestrated pincer operation can net hundreds. Don’t kill em, surround em

Hello Tomisama,

Isn't it so that the game makes the decision about that? You just erase router sprites and VI says x% are prisoners?

[Tomisama]

You are over my head here. All I know is what the logfile says.

For example in the last battle Sunday you had 612 kills, and 508 deaths recorded by the logfile.

Polar’s reader gives a combination of the kills (612) and captures (204), which adds to a total of 816, labeled as Total Kills.

And also gives a combination of deaths (508) and captures (255), which adds to a total of 763, labeled as Total Losses.

In the battle in question, the total kills and captures of the highest scorer was 1671. I believe approximately 700 of those were captures, and if we had the replay, I think you could clearly see how that was physically accomplished.

The only other person who was there who might still be around, would be RTK_Lional (and there was another RTK also I think). But I am not sure they stayed for the finish of the battle, and maybe save the replay or not? All of the others are long gone to the best of my knowledge.

P.S. I have heard of scores over 2000, but don't know what the circumstances were.

[Togakure]

In 3v3, I've always thought that 1000+ kills was Exceptional, 800-900 Excellent, 700-800 Good, 600-700 Average (for a winning team member), 500-600 Fair, and anything below 500 suggesting improvement would be a good thing. In 2v2, dropping these by 100 seems about right, and in 4v4, raising the bar by 100.

The most kills I've ever had in a balanced (player skill-wise) MP game was 1428, in an STW MI 1.02 3v3 game back in the dusk period of the official server.

I've been watching replays of our games, and seen teams lose, in my opinion, because crucial units were way off chasing down routers while their remaining core units got hit by rallying enemy troops. It's such a crap shoot (gamble). I also lost a marvelously played game in which Tosa was instrumental in the victory, but had the least kills. I wish there was some way to evaluate overall performance that isn't just based on kills. But I do understand KIS (keep it simple), and don't have any ideas off the top of my head at the moment. Personally, I liked the ratio of kills to losses better than just kills.

After some thought, assuming the quality and attitudes of players remains harmonious as it is now, I'll happily participate in any form and structure put together and agreed upon by the group. My hope is we can add competitive elements and maintain our current level of harmony.

[Tomisama]

I like your numbers Masa

Ya, kills minus losses was at least a reasonable approach, just not practical over the long run. But let me explain a bit more on how the ranking might fit into the big picture of a large scale competition.

The (very) short story would be that there are provinces on a map that can be claimed.

The claims can then be challenged.

The challenger presents a number of allies that will be accompanying him on his invasion (1 to 3).

By the rules, the challenged must meet the challenger’s threat with equal force, but no more.

The object being, to isolate this to a “contest of generalship” on whatever scale the players want to (or we are able to) play it on.

The “equal force” is where a ranking system comes in.

If he brings a black belt, you get to bring one too.

If he is a black belt and you are not, you get to hire one.

[Togakure]

I like that concept . It will add dimension to our games over time, without a lot of tension that usually comes along with a competitive environment. Very creative! I look forward to participating when it's ready. As always Tomisama, you are the master of these kinds of things.

[R'as al Ghul]

Thinking out loud:
We only have the numbers that the game returns: Kills, Captured Enemies, Lost, taken by the enemy. To leave out one of the numbers (Prisoners taken or lost) would not be right. I think we should stay with the count that Polar's reader gives. Meaning Prisoners count as kills. Iirc the Samurai didn't really take Prisoners anyway and in Shogun you only have "heads taken".
Now, whether you pursue those routing troops to make more kills is your decision, as Masamune points out it may weaken your army and you may miss crucial units which are at the edge of the map.
I think the number of kills is a nice indicator but it only tells you so much about the players performance. As Masa pointed out, you may be crucial for the team victory but may have a low number of kills. In that case all participants will know and respect that. I don't think that the participants of this competition will dwell on their number of kills and taunt others. (Well maybe they will )

The previous rounds of Samurai Warlords have always taken place in a very relaxed atmosphere. Although we add this competition layer to our gaming I don't expect anyone to take it overly serious in a way that would change our gettogether.


R'as

[TosaInu]

You are over my head here. All I know is what the logfile says.

Hello Tomisama,

Sorry for confusing you.

What I meant is that you just kill, but that the black box decides whether it's a kill or a capture. Perhaps it's as simple as:

-when 960 fight till the last man -> 960 kills.
-when the whole army of 960 routs and then gets killed while routing -> 960 prisoners.

But there may be one or more other calculations, such as low percentage of kills are prisoner when fighting and a high percentage when routing.

Chasing routers can be a good thing, while routed units have a negative bonus and are tiring themselves, they can still become a keyproblem after rallying. Nasty thing indeed is when your near fresh monkunit chases 1 nodachi to the other side of the map

[Tomisama]

I have never heard anything but congratulations when some one breaks a thousand, and thanks when someone saves someone else’s behind.

I think that’s because we have a relatively mature SW community. In fact all who are involved with Samurai Warlords provide a prime example of what it means to be an honourable warrior, and that as refreshing as a cool breeze these days

Now concerning the possible competition basically presented above. To have a clearer picture of what is intended, please let me explain that battles over provinces are specially scheduled events. That they are one battle, one time per challenge, and because they necessarily only include the two teams of temporary allies, only one challenge per week is allowed.

In other words, the current casual format of our Sunday get togethers should be affected very little, if at all. The purpose of the competition is only to focus our overall activities, and to provide visibility of them to the TW community at large.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I have never heard anything but congratulations when some one breaks a thousand, and thanks when someone saves someone else’s behind.

I think that’s because we have a relatively mature SW community. In fact all who are involved with Samurai Warlords provide a prime example of what it means to be an honourable warrior, and that as refreshing as a cool breeze these days

Now concerning the possible competition basically presented above. To have a clearer picture of what is intended, please let me explain that battles over provinces are specially scheduled events. That they are one battle, one time per challenge, and because they necessarily only include the two teams of temporary allies, only one challenge per week is allowed.

In other words, the current casual format of our Sunday get togethers should be affected very little, if at all. The purpose of the competition is only to focus our overall activities, and to provide visibility of them to the TW community at large.

sounds good Tomi. Make it Happen