$27 Million Evolution-Debunking Museum To Open

[Watchman]

It tends to be kind of inconvenient anyway.

[Tribesman]

Just wondering Vuk , since you are now studying Islamic scripture , could you tell me what it says about how people who righteously follow the teachings of the Torah or the Bible should be treated ?
Or does the website you found only seek out whatever negative snippets it can cobble together ?

As a side topic on the position of women in different religeous groups , have any of you ever been to a Jehovah's Witness wedding ?

[Vuk]

I would suggest if your going to quote the Quran you learn how to spell it first. Which if you owned a copy you would know. Therefore I say all your reference are invalid and probably some anti-Islamic propaganda you've trolled up from Christian websites.

My spelling of the koran is neither a mistake or an insult to muslims.

As said the biabal has equally as violent statements regarding non believers, Im pretty sure I saw it quoted in the Athiest thread

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=73476&page=2

post 146

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Well if that wasn't the most twisted thing I have ever heard. If you are not Christian, you do not live in the Isrealite camp. It is talking about Isrealites who transgress God's Covenant, not conquering and maiming other countries. It is simple. If you with to live in a Christian place, be Christian. They had special laws for nonbelievers. This is refering to Christians who start worshipping other gods inside the Isrealite camp.


Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13


Again, they are talking about disobeying GOD'S law, not the priest's. It does well to read what comes before and after. Perhaps you should before you take a verse and present it as proof

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Never says you can't exchange greeting with them, but that you can't wish them God speed. (ie the blessing of God on their travels)
This was not God speeking to Christians, but a letter John wrote to the Church. It is NOT a law of God as God says you can. That was John's advice. This Book is added to the Bible in an historical sense. Times were different then, and he was not advising us, but the ancient church.

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

"Them who cause divisions and make offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them"

Not cut off their fingers...

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Ya, they are. You have to believe that if you are a Christian, duh! If He is and they say He isn't, then of course!

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

I agree. God's laws are goodness. If you don't obey His laws, then you are wickedness.

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Again, you point is? I don't see how this matches ANYTHING from the koran

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

They will, if not they will get the second death. When you think of it, we owe everything including our lives and souls to God. Who the hech are we to disobey Him?

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

He is saying that them who do His will do not do wrong. It would be quite apparent if you read what came before and after.

Should you persist in deliberately misspelling the Quran - I will consider it a slur against the Islamic faith

Consider it what you will. I refuse to spell the koran as you would have me. :D

*sigh*

I didn't think I'd have to bother, since you claim to be a Christian, and it's fairly well known even among us infidels that the Bible is full of crazy stuff, but okay:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12

Talking about Christian Isrealites that try to pervert peoples hearts.
Again, this was iinstruction on how to rule the Isrealite people. If you didn't like it, you could get out. They are talking about perverters here.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13

Christians had become perverted and turned away from God. He was talking about Isreal, not any nation they feel like.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

He is talking about people who would bring the wrath of God on them. Again, talking about how to givern Christians, not other nations. During that time they got direct orders from God, so if they were ordered to do something and you think it wrong, you will have to take it up with God. God made it clear that that ended.



One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. Leviticus 24:10-16


It is against God's law. Don't say it if you don't like it :D Serious things have serious consequences. I still don't see how this compares to the koran at all.

And you were saying something about women?

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14


Not as sex slaves. That was illegal (unlike with islamic peoples). As slaves (who after seven years got their freedom as you'd know if you read your Bible) The guys got it worse, because after seven years of labor they were not free to go, now, they died.

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

No matter what, he can't divorce her. If he is caught doing anything to her, he can be stoned. As long as the wife obeys the law, she can do anything. If I was God, I'd say death to guy, but God knows best. (And I believe she can not marry him, but sentence him to death if she chooses.

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

They are saying if she willingly has sex with him. It is rape because the woman is bethrothed. He is put to death to, it is not unfair at all.



When a man sells his daughter as a maidservant, not sex slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11

That is saying if a guy breaks the law and his contract with the woman, he cannot sell her to a foriegn nation. I don't know what version you used, but...
If a slave owner broke contract with a guy servant, he could sell him to anyone.


Oh, I don't know. It doesn't look like the Bible is any easier on women than the Quran is...

To make a statement like that, I must come to the conclusion that you are smoking something really strong. Women were treated DAMN well in the Bible. Sure their lives were harder than modern women's, but men's were harder also. It was harder times. The Bible was not unfair to women at all.

I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.

[Tribesman]

I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.

So there are two possible options .
It is either a case of you haven't read your bible or you are living proof that there are none so blind as those who will not see .

[Husar]

But for the most part, moderate practitioners of both religions ignore all the really evil stuff.

Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?

[Tribesman]

Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?

Well the topic is fundamental Christains and the literal acceptance of every word from the Bible as the divinely inspired absolute truth .
So if they reject the truth about laws of God as set out in old testament scripture then what about the truth about the story of creation ?
Now Nav has been asked about this before , but all we got was a "well some of those laws don't apply any more because ....well because...." his ability to maintiain the wind up let him down when he couldn't identify which laws didn't apply and where there was later scripture saying they didn't apply .

So remember Husar , this topic isn't about Christainity as such , it is about the fundamentalist young earth cretinist branch .


As a little diversion , can anyone name the President of a Republic from the beginning of the last century(and the end of the previous one) whose fundamentlist Christian view was that the earth was indeed flat and not roundish at all ? (clue , he had rather a big beard) .

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

The point is that while christianity transformed mainly to a good form (faith in jesus, going to church, charity etc) with only a few exceptions, the majority of muslims take the koran quite literally, especially the woman part.

[Soulforged]

Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?

This is untrue. It might apply for deists, pantheists, pagans (heathens) or simple deniers. But the truth is that, logically (if that has any value on religion) Jesus came to fulfill the second "pact" between the people of Israel and God (the first made way back on the time of the twelve tribes), to save them (a lot of doctrine here, I will just jump it), as such it follows that both testaments have to be read as a whole total reveletion, wheter it's from man or God. If it's from God, and God is perfect, then there's no excuse to ignore the first and consider only the second, even with all their evident contradictions.
Apart from that, there was never a single word from the first Church wich stated that the Old Testament was not to be taken as a part of the christian faith, in fact many very old rules from those books still apply up to date, like the 10 commandments of course.
Is true, however, that you'll find a lot of people who call themselves christians because they allegedly follow the teachings of a man who lived thousands of years ago in the land of Palestina and Israel called Jesus. Now considering that the supposed history of this holy man is only told through the recounts of their partners (wich in many cases results in contradictory doctrine), I don't know how can anyone seriously say that they deny such paragraphs of such apostle or prophet, but they consider the other as valids. Christian is only that who accepts a group of basic principles of faith upheld by the Church as a whole, if he upholds his own basic principles is just an ordinary deist, wich happens to consider this person Jesus as someone holy.

As far as I know, and I know some jewish people, most jewish don't sacrifice lambs either. This is without a doubt the work of time and the increase of city's sizes and city's populations. Nothing directly related to faith, though it has several derived effects on it, evidently.

Finally, and this is somewhat a tiresome rethoric already, but, anyone who reads words or sees a picture and worships them will have serious problems when trying to not become a fanatic. Words are only valid if there's a reason to support them, and this reason has to be more than the simple fact that they were written by a given author in a given time or in the vein of certain ideals.

[Watchman]

The point is that while christianity transformed mainly to a good form (faith in jesus, going to church, charity etc) with only a few exceptions, the majority of muslims take the koran quite literally, especially the woman part.

And you know this from what exactly...?

And moreover, have fun sorting out how much of that is actual religious content and how much is good old patriarchical conservatism of the same school thanks to which women in Christian countries were long told God made them intellectually inferior and whatnot and, as such, also not eligible to vote and so on...

You know, the same sort of stuff thanks to which the Finnish state church still hasn't gotten it through to all the clergymen that they're not allowed to decline working with female priests.

[Yun Dog]

I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.

you have been shown to be incorrect, your continued beligerance is ignorant at best, biggoted and blinkered at worst.

You and people like you are one of the reasons I have walked away from the Christian faith - the views you express about other religions are not what I would consider 'Christian' in any good sense of the word. Its interesting how you came in here crying about scientist attacking Christianity and now you zealously do exactly that to Islam.

pot meet kettle

*the ignore function has become my new best friend*

bye Vuk I wont be suffering any more of your biggoted views

[Azi Tohak]

I want to see anyone stick whatever chemical compounds they want, in a bucket, heat it, shake it, massage it whatever, and see if a bacteria grows. Remember, no bacteria to start with, just like the molten ball that was Earth billions of years ago when my high school english teachers were teenagers.

Isn't that how life started?

Azi

[Watchman]

I thought that experiment's been done a few times already ?

[Azi Tohak]

http://www.resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm#precursors

Found it!

If it wasn't 1am on a work night, I would read it. Gives me something to do tomorrow!

Azi

[Banquo's Ghost]

I want to see anyone stick whatever chemical compounds they want, in a bucket, heat it, shake it, massage it whatever, and see if a bacteria grows. Remember, no bacteria to start with, just like the molten ball that was Earth billions of years ago when my high school english teachers were teenagers.

Isn't that how life started?
i

You first. I want to see a beardy fellow in an ill-fitting robe snap his fingers and make a cosmos.

Silliness apart, try looking up the Miller-Urey experiment and developmental research links. If, of course, you are really looking for information.

[BigTex]

You first. I want to see a beardy fellow in an ill-fitting robe snap his fingers and make a cosmos.

Tell me how all the matter that created the big bang got there in the first place. Matter and energy do not create themselves.

As banq pointed out, amino acids are easily produced in the labratory. One of the building blocks to life. There is also the find back in '98 of the marsian rock containing life, the results from that find have had a profound impact on how life could have developed. I can't even recall the term used for the sub cellular life found in the rock though.

[Watchman]

Tell me how all the matter that created the big bang got there in the first place. Matter and energy do not create themselves.

Want to discuss the issue of where the assorted Deus Fabers came from in the first place...?

That, at least, seems to be a topic where science and faith draw equally blank.

[BDC]

Matter and energy do not create themselves.

Unless you're in a vacuum of course.

Virtual particles!

[Goofball]

Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?

Christians don't follow the OT?

I was under the impression that the Bible was the Holy Book of Christians.

Bi·ble –noun 1.the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments. 2.Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament. 3.(often lowercase) the sacred writings of any religion. 4.(lowercase) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

[English assassin]

There is also the find back in '98 of the marsian rock containing life, the results from that find have had a profound impact on how life could have developed. I can't even recall the term used for the sub cellular life found in the rock though.

"inorganic", sadly. Although I gather from what we know of extremophiles on earth that no one is going to be very surprised if we do find that there was once, or possibly still is, simple life on Mars.

Oh, no, wait, that's not in the bible. Obviously there can be no life on Mars silly me.

Incidentally, anyone wanting a good read on astrobiology (and lets face it who wouldn't) could do worse than this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rare-Earth-C...e=UTF8&s=books. very interesting indeed. The one sentence conclusion is that life at about the bacterial level is probably pretty common, large multicellular animals walikg abiout are probably very, very rare.

So take care of yourselves: you might be the only intelligent life in the universe.

[Scurvy]

The point is that while christianity transformed mainly to a good form (faith in jesus, going to church, charity etc) with only a few exceptions, the majority of muslims take the koran quite literally

Not really that true. There are just as many examples of christianity being used in a bad way as there are for islam.

the reason many muslims take the koran literally is because more muslims are uneducated, and therefore belive what they are told/are unable to read into it in the same way... this in no way makes islam a "bad form" religion, when taking the koran literally there is just as much peaceful stuff as bad stuff

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Christians don't follow the OT?

I was under the impression that the Bible was the Holy Book of Christians.

Bi·ble –noun 1.the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments. 2.Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament. 3.(often lowercase) the sacred writings of any religion. 4.(lowercase) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

The new testemant trumps the old.

For example, Jews are allowed to get divorced, Christians aren't.

[Tribesman]

The new testemant trumps the old.

For example, Jews are allowed to get divorced, Christians aren't.

Depends which verses you read from which books of the NT .
Paul is quite a funny read on the whole woman/marriage topic .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh, the NT is a mess granted. I often wonder why Paul is in there at all.

[Tribesman]

Yep , but I was thinking more along the lines of the contradictions between Matt And Mark , since if NT trumps OT surely Gospel trumps letters .

[Goofball]

I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.

Unbelievable.

You quoted some Quran scriptures showing that "1$L4m = teh sux 4 girlz & infid31s." I posted Biblical scriptures that demonstrated exactly the same thing about Christianity (assuming both books are to be taken literally, which you are doing with the Quran).

Then you make up a bunch of crazy justifications saying how the Christianity is still "kinder and gentler" (you even went so far as to for Crissake change one of the Biblical quotes to suit your purposes), and say you can't understand what I am talking about.

Mental midgetry at its finest...

For the record:

I am not a big fan of either Islam or Christianity, as they are currently practiced (mostly hypocrisy and intolerance, instead of love and acceptance). I am not out to defend Islam.

I am simply pointing out to you that, well, I think Jesus said it best:

He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone...

Now Vuk, verily do I bid thee, go forth and sin no more.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Trying to find something different to say in this debate - how's this:

Let us suppose Navros is right - that the world was created in seven days as described in the bible and that if we don't believe it we will be eternally damned - then it really matters. You can understand why he (and others) are so passionate about it. This could be the difference between heaven and hell. If I believed that I would feel duty bound to try to convert everyone I knew to the right way of thinking. If I am right and the big bang theory and evolution are basically correct, what does it matter what Navros thinks? It won't save him in any sense of the word to be converted to the scientific view. Why then, are there so many passionate anti-creationists? Surely we just lay out the scientific evidence and if people accept it fine and if not, so what? Of course if people spout nonsense claiming it is science, we might say "no, it isn't" but even then why get worked up about it?

[Goofball]

Trying to find something different to say in this debate - how's this:

Let us suppose Navros is right - that the world was created in seven days as described in the bible and that if we don't believe it we will be eternally damned - then it really matters. You can understand why he (and others) are so passionate about it. This could be the difference between heaven and hell. If I believed that I would feel duty bound to try to convert everyone I knew to the right way of thinking. If I am right and the big bang theory and evolution are basically correct, what does it matter what Navros thinks? It won't save him in any sense of the word to be converted to the scientific view. Why then, are there so many passionate anti-creationists? Surely we just lay out the scientific evidence and if people accept it fine and if not, so what? Of course if people spout nonsense claiming it is science, we might say "no, it isn't" but even then why get worked up about it?

I can't speak for everyone, but as I mentioned earlier I am not anti-creationist.

I am simply against having creationists try to pass their beliefs off as science and teach them to my children in school.

I have no problem with this museum at all.

[Azi Tohak]

You first. I want to see a beardy fellow in an ill-fitting robe snap his fingers and make a cosmos.

Silliness apart, try looking up the Miller-Urey experiment and developmental research links. If, of course, you are really looking for information.

Sneering at a fellow board member by a Moderator? You have a responsibility to maintain the civility here and if you fail to do so, then why are you a moderator?

I said I was looking for information. It happened to be 1am when I found it. But I also found this:

http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise...gy/miller.html

Note the objections raised to the admittedly interesting experiements.

So you can (sort of) claim that the basis of life can be formed. The next step is how they came to work together right? Now I'm hunting for info on that too.

Azi

[Azi Tohak]

I can't speak for everyone, but as I mentioned earlier I am not anti-creationist.

I am simply against having creationists try to pass their beliefs off as science and teach them to my children in school.

I have no problem with this museum at all.

I agree with Goofball.

I'm a Christian going to a strong Baptist church here in Texas. But I'm also a scientist (well applied science anyway, Chemical Engineering degree) and I fail to see why evolutionary theory is so often proclaimed as (pardon the pun) gospel.

My objection is that while evolution looks good, as far as I can tell it simply has too many holes for me to accept that it is a Law of Science, as so many people seem to think it is. Scientific Laws like those of Thermodynamics I have no problem with because I can't find a hole in them.

Azi

P.S. Sorry for the double post.

[AntiochusIII]

My objection is that while evolution looks good, as far as I can tell it simply has too many holes for me to accept that it is a Law of Science, as so many people seem to think it is. Scientific Laws like those of Thermodynamics I have no problem with because I can't find a hole in them.

Meh. That's probably because with something like thermodynamics all you really have to do is test the whole thing in real life. Biology? You can't emulate millions of years of evolutionary process in a matter of days, months, or even years.

The study had always focused on both fossil evidence and living life forms, among other things. And, pardon the pun, the study of evolution is still evolving.

It's the same as history. There are an incredible amount of holes in our knowledge of human history despite the way it's taught as simple facts. Are we going to say history is false and Genghis Khan's a Chinese lie just because there are holes in our knowledge?

Oh wait, I think those extremists already did. 6000 years of Earth life my butt. My French teacher is older than that.

Also, the unusual stance that the Theory of Evolution takes in popular imagination -- the antagonist of your Most Holy Bible, an alternate Gospel -- is due to the religious' response, not the scientists' insistence. So the Church took issue with Darwin, a religious man by all accounts; now a bunch of nutjobs take issue with "evolutionists" (what a stupid term) just because. It all makes those who happen to support the theory defend it, and the nutjobs repeat their attack on it, so the supporters had to defend it again, and a vicious cycle is born. Bang. Evolution's now at the forefront of the public imagination.

It had something to do with Darwin's theory directly contradicting the Genesis, I guess. But I couldn't in my right mind somehow believe my Most Honorable Nameless Ancestor descended from some nudist in hott gardens 'round Armenia anyway.