The problem with M2TW is that the developers are mediocre gamers

**GuyofJerusalem** · 01-15-2007, 16:32

There I've pinpointed it - CA developers are lousy gamers.

That's why they could make some promises in seemingly good faith - you'll get beaten on VH tactical map (haha), diplomacy works (ahaha), movement points are adequate for manevering and so on.

Yet upon weeks of release of the game, mod developers, guys who work in the day and fiddle with the game at night, are instantly able to produce much better product than vanilla, without seemingly much effort. I'm talking about one or two man teams, without reskinning, just juggling the numbers.

We can only conclude that CA developers have not been able to grasp intuitively the thrust of the campaign map (let's forget about the dire AI tactics on the battlemap, since that could be plain programming incompetence), and not able to see the different ways that the game could be played. For example, they could get steamrollered by the AI and believe it posed a challenge to players yet doesn't for people who think a few steps ahead. They probably hardly ever destroyed another faction on the map so they could not understand the possibility of a one-state nation asking you to be their vassal. Quite pathetic.

What prompted this post was Lusted saying that the CA developers have contacted him about using some of his balancing changes to the game. I find this quite incredible. LTC is so far different from the original it is a virtual agreement that the original was fatally flawed and universally disliked.

I think it's not about beta testing. It's about the inability of CA to actually play the game to its full value because they are poor gamers as well as mediocre programmers.

This needs to be changed.

**AussieGiant** · 01-15-2007, 16:36

Well GuyofJerusalem,

This thread sounds as if it's going to be locked very quickly.

Do you have a proposal or is that the total balance of your theory?

**Carl** · 01-15-2007, 16:46

Also in most companies it isn't the devs wo do the beta testing. they may have a fiddile with it in game to try and check all their coding changes apply. but weather what they've done is balanced is determined by somone else. they then change things according to feedback. Check the changes work and then pass it back to the beta testers for more play and feedback.

**Neoncat** · 01-15-2007, 16:48

Actually some firms have people making games that don't even play games. Games are just like all other programs to them and therefore they can't see whats right and whats wrong. Only thing they do is that they 'mindlessly' follow the orders from upper level. You can see this clearly in some games. Don't know about CA, but at least IMO they are enough gamers to see whats good and whats not.

**Puzz3D** · 01-15-2007, 16:49

"This needs to be changed."

Unfortunately, I doubt that it's financially viable to test games of this complexity sufficiently before release. Significant problems might be corrected after release, but limited patching reduces the chances of getting everything corrected. If you like participating in the big bug hunt, by all means buy the game upon release. If you don't want to do that, wait for the final patch and then decide whether or not to buy the product.

**JCoyote** · 01-15-2007, 16:50

Taking it a bit far aren't you? This game is their job. I'm sure they enjoy it. And they probably play it til any reasonable person would be sick of it.

These guys are laying down the groundwork the modders are using. If it's so simple, why hasn't a similar game popped out of the ether whole cloth from a few hours of work from a handful of hardcore gamers?

Oh wait... because creating an engine, developing the interface, creating gigs worth of original content just MAYBE takes more time and effort than that. Trust me, these guys got a lot on their plates, the stuff the modders play with is still a small portion of the game overall.

As far as gameplay? Trust me, I'm no master game designer or something, but I could easily create a game so wickedly difficult only half a percent or less of people could beat it. So? That proves nothing, just that my thinking and problem solving work in a way only a small portion of people can get. The same applies to a lot of other people and specific interests, etc. The trick is making it engagingly challenging for a lot of players. That's not even close to easy. A hardcore gamer can easily build an unsellable game because they make it too difficult for most players.

And at any rate, the key question is, is it FUN? They've done a lot trying to give us that, and are still working hard finishing it.

**a_ver_est** · 01-15-2007, 17:03

Are people that develop a medical software doctors ?

**Forward Observer** · 01-15-2007, 18:09

Originally Posted by a_ver_est

Are people that develop a medical software doctors ?

A medical analogy might be apropos here, but Guy's assertion might be more like trying to tell a doctor he knows nothing about medicine because he is also not a patient or better yet----

telling the people at Sony or Sharp that they don't know how to make TV's because they also don't watch them or--

telling the people at Adidas that their athletic shoes are no good because they are not runners or---

telling someone who who has been putting out award winning gaming software for 7 years (a lifetime in this business) that they know nothing of gaming and programming.

JCoyote explained it in better detail, but like him I find Guy's assertion a bit over the top and pretty counter intuitive if one really thinks it through.

Cheers

**PaulTa** · 01-15-2007, 18:36

Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Well GuyofJerusalem,

This thread sounds as if it's going to be locked very quickly.

Do you have a proposal or is that the total balance of your theory?

*Cringe* Total abuse of the word theory...

You should call his post an entirely unsupported rant with plenty of ad himinem. that would be better, yes.

**Akka** · 01-15-2007, 18:47

This thread is worded quite offensively, and with excessive agressivity and disdain.

But honestly, when I see how untested and unbalanced MTW2 seems to be, I can't help but think there is probably some truth in it.
One thing feels obvious : the guys who made MTW2 really didn't PLAYED it extensively. Half of the bugs are obvious with only two hours of playtesting. It's incredible that they didn't catch them sooner...

**The Stranger** · 01-15-2007, 19:18

when a game is too hard it isnt fun either... however... M2TW is waay to easy... but all TW games are... but the difference is to me... that M2TW isnt even a small challenge... i only got beaten once because i didnt know 2handed units were bugged... i found out by seeing my elite varangians get beaten by javelinmen...

I however don't know if they are mediocre gamers and I also wouldnt say the product is bad... its just not as good as they claim... and also a lot of things dont work... if you expect something for your money its not thebest game to buy... if you are willing to oversee the flawed parts and only see the good ones... its oke i guess

**Lusted** · 01-15-2007, 19:25

What prompted this post was Lusted saying that the CA developers have contacted him about using some of his balancing changes to the game. I find this quite incredible. LTC is so far different from the original it is a virtual agreement that the original was fatally flawed and universally disliked.

So its incredible that CA want to talk to a modder about his changes to unit balancing to see if they can improve the balance of units, and so improve the game?

I actually think this is something CA should have done before, modders have the time to make fiddly little changes to unit stats and then test them for hours on end(i have no life). CA do not have this luxury, beign a company with deadlines to reach etc. From the sounds of it the CA devs don't have much chance to play the game as they're pretty busy working on the patch and expansion. By utilising the large pool of talent in the mod community to help them improve the balance, or to help give them a start on certain things to make their job easier will help them to produce a better game, and improve community - CA relations.

**econ21** · 01-15-2007, 19:28

The problem with this thread is that the original poster is a far from mediocre troll.

Seriously: no more threads insulting CA games or designers. If players think it is "disgusting" that a computer game has bugs or they want to insult CA staff as "lousy", doing "pathetic" work and showing "programming incompetence" etc, then that is fine. They can think whatever they want. But the Org is not the forum to discuss CA games or game designers in such insulting terms. The Org is a place for civilised rational discussion where we treat members, including CA staff, with respect.

There are lots of wild west places on the internet where people can swear, abuse and rant at their leisure. I hope the flamers enjoy them as much as the rest of us ignore the more pleasant atmosphere of the Org.

For what it is worth, I think it is great news that Palamedes is in consultation with Lusted. And I am quite sure that he could kick my ass in multiplayer, but then a forum member has already posted that I must be a unskilled player to recommend M2TW.