Another Sheild Problem~:(

[Musashi]

Yes but that is because of damage and destruction to the blades, not damage to the arm or wrist of the user.

And blocking and stopping blades with other blades is certainly not without precedent either. I'd think someone taking the name Musashi would know that.

Actually katana are particularly poor for attempting to directly block an attack. But my point was that either the sword is broken or one person will likely be disarmed because the force, directed straight to your hand, is too much for your fingers to keep their grip.

A shield is buckled to your arm. Instead of losing your grip, the force is sent into your arm, and yes, you will likely have it broken if the force of the blow is from a heavy weapon designed to stave in platemail like a heavy waraxe or mace or hammer.

[Ulstan]

If someone smashed you on the shield right against where your arm was, then yes, it could be broken. Could be.

If on the other hand, you caught the descending blow on the edge of the shield, you were very unlikely to have your arm broken. Men at arms with shields would melee all battle and not wind up with a broken shield arm, so it's not as though it was one blocked blow and 'oops! Broken limb!'

[Musashi]

No, but a heavy armor cracking weapon could be deliberately used to destroy a shield or the arm under it with a carefully aimed strike.

[pat the magnificent]

any of you people ever watch that show "Conquest" on the history channel?

that dude build some very accurately constructed laminate round shields and tested their ability to withstand direct strikes from various weapons.

he shot one with a bow (like 40 pound test, no where near the power of a longbow) and it penetrated through a few inches in i recall correctly. i've no doubt that a longbow or a heavy crossbow would power right through it at all but the longest distances.

he struck one single handed with a longsword (like either a viking broadsword or bastard sword or something like that... doesn't really matter i don't think) and it split about halfway through the thing. despite the fact that it was held immobile, it was easy to imagine something similar happening even if it was held by a moving person, if perhaps not on the first strike.

then he attacked the thing with a saxon style 2 handed axe (or at least some type of big war axe, it was a few years ago when i watched it) and i'm pretty sure i remember the shield being completely smashed into splinters. i wouldn't have wanted to have my arm behind that shield at the moment of its demise.

anyways the point is, well i don't really know what the point is, but i know i certainly would want to trust my life to a a few glued together planks of wood when there's people swinging sword and axes at me and trying to stick me with arrows. actually the program convinced me quite throughly that if i was on a medieval battle i just run away as fast humanly possible.

[Blademun]

Back on topic with this post...I personally think that their should be two different 'kinds' of AP. Missile AP and Melee AP. Its so obvious that a AP Axe can break a shield..but a AP arrow will get stuck. There are exceptions to the rule of course, and thats why these are all percentage based values.

Also, I noticed somebody mentioned Musashi and blocking with a sword. He didn't block in the hollywood sense with his blade. He 'caught' the enemy blade with his at an angle that caused it to slide down the edge and get caught on the hilt of his blade. Also, after developing his dual-wield style, he used his wakazashi and Katana together, using the blunt side of each blade in a scissor pattern to catch a downward strike, and turn it down to the right, hold it down with his katana while he turned his Wakazashi back to slice at his enemy.

I've been reading a excellent japanese Graphic novel that fairly accurately depicts the life of Miyamota Musashi(which wasn't his real name, btw..) it also nicely illustrates various forms of Japanese swordsmenry with excellent illustrations. Its a hard series to find, I usually have to go to Anime conventions just to find them.

[dopp]

Notice that shields become smaller or disappear completely once plate armor becomes sufficiently advanced as it is no longer 'needed' for protection. In the original MTW the shield bonus was much smaller than the armor value for heavily-armored troops and some units had purely decorative shields (Gothic Knights) to simulate how the armor made the shield unnecessary. I was unpleasantly surprised to discover that units with shields in M2TW have the full shield bonus for their type, which leads to the interesting situation of 'older' units with supposedly less armor having more total defense frontally than units with advanced plate. Comparing Gothic Knights with advanced plate to upgraded Chivalric Knights with full plate, the Chivalrics have only 1 less armor but 4 shield bonus, giving them 3 more defense to the front. Once the shield issue is sorted out, the newer and more advanced units may lose out to the older units simply because of the shields.

[Jambo]

With AP

15
13
11
9
10

Without AP

2
3
2
3
3

So these results show what exactly? Number of men left or number of casualties? Presumably it's number of casualties and if so, that means the ap attribute is positively affecting the shield value, right?

[Carl]

Number of kills, sorry.

When AP is on arrows cause more damage to units with sheilds.

However according to all documentation they should cause the same with or without AP, as AP should have no effect on Sheilds according to said documentation.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't Gothics have AP maces though, dopp?

[Carl]

Don't Gothics have AP maces though, dopp?

Nope, their a 2-handed sword unit. But i'm finding that once you fix the other 2-handers, Pikes, and the Sheild bug you need to give 2-Handed Swords AP and a slight (+2) attack raise to make them useful.

The thing Dopp's getting at is that Sheilds are unaffected by AP when working right so they would get significant extra's vs. them. For what it's worth, most AP 2-Handers still beat Sheild units in my version of the sheild fix, and the diffrance between my version and working sheilds against AP is only 1 point of defence. So I doubt their would be a massive issue.

Also remember that DGK are pretty poor stats wise for a 2-hander, (once you factor their animation in), and thus really shouldn't be wailing all over DCK. Cost wise is another matter and thats an issue all units have once you fix everything. Most 2-handers are then a littil underpriced, except the Sword ones that are highly overpriced.

[Carl]

Just done a quick test with fixed DCK vs fixed DGK. I controlled the DCK. The DGK won with 18 left. A bit underwhelming I admit, but I honestly expected that as they relly don't have the training level, or animation of the only similar price working vanillia unit, (JHI). (Heavy Billmen, even when fixed STILL get beat by JHI, despite their better attack and defence, and the same animation BTW).

[Jambo]

Two-handed swords (2HS) should probably have been ap anyway. A 2HS was a feared weapon on the battlefield during medieval times and the sheer size and weight of the weapon would enable the bearer to inflict damage to all types of armoured foe (assuming they had the strength to wield one).