M2TW: Worth the Price?

[fallen851]

I waited to buy M2TW after the RTW debacle, where bugs are still present, despite a community pointing them out.

But it seems like the same bug had bitten M2TW, and it will be a game with maybe a few patches, but largely unsupported, and with grevious bugs. This is unacceptable to me. Do you guys think that CA has changed their policy from RTW and will support this game?

Furthermore I have to upgrade my computer to run it, which will cost additionally.

Is M2TW worth the price for me?

[OMGLAZERS]

How powerful is your computer?

I wouldn't upgrade a computer JUST for M2TW (I mean, there are so many other games out there that need so much more power anyways).

If you do get the game though, to me, it's worthless without the proper mod downloads. Honestly, vanilla is just so buggy and unbalanced it makes me wonder what the hell is going on at CA.

[Lusted]

Do you guys think that CA has changed their policy from RTW and will support this game?

CA did 4 patches for RTW, and 1 for BI, all a decent size so not exactly lacking in support.

We already have 1 patch for M2Tw, another on its way, and CA is working much more with the community now, and is providing more help to themod community. So yes CA are supporting it better.

Personally i think M2Tw is the best TW game ever, i definitely think its worth the money.

[danfda]

While MTW is still my favorite, the second edition is very enjoyable, and much better than RTW. Thats my opinion, of course, and the game is still buggy, but there is so much potential for M2, what with mods and all...

[Snoil The Mighty]

The additional utility I got for purchasing M2TW on the release date has vastly exceeded it's cost in monetary terms and opportunity cost. It's all about marginal utility folks!

[Durallan]

I won't say anything until they release the final patch for the game because that wouldn't be fair on CA, judging the game that way (even if it should have been released fixed) because I think its what they do after they release a buggy game thats important.

Egosoft had a very buggy game released with X3 Reunion 1.0. VERY buggy. if you install the 2.0 patch the difference is simply astounding and puts my faith back in egosoft even if they were forced to released a buggy version by their publisher.

So I won't judge CA's character until they release the last patch for this game.

[Hollerbach]

Personally I'm waiting till the gold edition or even in a year or two's time when the game + 1-2 expansions comes out in a single cheap package.

I don't think I'm as picky as some folks and Rome 1.5 and BI post patch are both really fun for me. That being said pre-many patches Rome was not so great.

I'm happy to play Rome for a while still as there's also a heap of good Rome mods I havn't tried yet. Once M2TW is in it's final most bug free state and their are a bunch of great mods around for it then I'll buy it.

[Slug For A Butt]

I'm with Lusted, I love this game warts and all. Personally, RTW was my favourite TW game so far because of the period, but this I think this is a fun game. I do feel the game was a little rushed for the Christmas market, but hell... they've got a business to run. I also remember the posts bitching because M2TW "is taking sooo long" and the "if it ever arrives" threads, these people are then complaining because it is released maybe a couple of months before it should have been. As long as they patch it afterwards that's fine with me.

And yes, I am building a new machine for this game. So its going to cost me a bit of cash, thats fine as I only upgrade my PC once every couple of years when the new TW title comes out.

I don't know what you find unacceptable, CA supported RTW more than any other TW game (maybe I am wrong, but didn't they patch it more than any other TW game?). So unless I am wrong (I am human ), your assertion that they didn't support RTW is way off the mark.

Your point is?

*EDIT : Oh, and how can you possibly call RTW a "debacle"? It is a fine game, but maybe you should stick to STW where you had to chase an outnumbered enemy around the battlemap and corner them before they would fight... christ that drove me crazy.

[Northnovas]

Yes, having just played the MTW VI series this is a step up "warts and all". Not having played the RTW series I have no comparison issues but I am satisfied and waited till the first patch came out before I purchased. Have been playing vanilla and with mods.
If your CPU needs an upgrade then it's worth it to upgrade and get the game. Keep in mind it doesn't not need anything major if you have upgraded in the last year or so. My system is decent and I am very happy with the video card settings on low. It is still a visual experience and runs great.

[econ21]

I got a new graphics card for this game. It might not have been strictly necessary, but I felt this was the kind of "dead cert" game that justified such an investment. Plus in the long run, it will pay off as other recent games - such as Neverwinter Nights 2 - are surprisingly demanding in hardware.

If you consider RTW a debacle, then don't buy M2TW. The "debacle" view is a surprising view for someone who regularly frequents the EB forums. No RTW = no EB or any other of those stunning mods. I personally don't much like RTW out of the box but I am totally bowled over by some of the mods of it. RTR and EB bring ancient wargames to the computer in a way I would not have imagined possible.

It's not yet clear whether M2TW will generate the same fantastic mods as RTW. Apparently the modders don't have a tool to create new skins for units and without that, the chances for a major team mod might fade away. But given the moves of CA so far towards the modders, I am fairly optimistic they will provide the necessary help. Lusted may know more.

In terms of the vanilla M2TW, it advances on RTW in a number of ways. I also find the strategic and tactical AI significantly better. The campaign map feels almost as tight and competitive as the STW/MTW Risk style maps. And the VH battles are challenging without obvious +7 bonuses to AI stats. Out of the box, I think it is the best TW game so far (for SP). And it would be a great basis for mods. (Ultimately, even EB and RTR etc are limited by rather tame strategic and tactical AI.)

Graphically, of course, it looks very nice - the trailers did not lie. The weather and terrain are particularly striking. Play a battle on the Scottish highlands and you may feel even the wonderful STW Shinano map has finally been equalled.

In terms of CA patching policy, I suspect we will see a repeat of what they've done before. A few patches, each of which significantly improve the game. (For example, the first patch got rid of AI passivity when attacking in field battles - that was a game killing bug for me.) There probably will be some niggling bugs left over at the end of the patching process, but I am not sure how "grievous" they will be. Certainly not game killing. It would be a strange person who would not play a RTW mod because large stone walls are still bugged.

There are signs of some changes at CA. Palamedes in particular seems to be trying to contect with the hardcore modding and MP community, listening to their concerns. I think that's great, as typically those concerns are also things that will enhance the experience of regular players just in SP mode. Right now there are a number of bugs and balance issues, but I am fairly optimistic we will get a reasonable solution from CA and that modders will be able to tweak things further. Let's face it, stats balancing is partly a matter of personal interpretation and preference. The guys who knew for sure how powerful knights were against spears are long dead.

[Slug For A Butt]

@Northnovas I agree, it IS a step up as far as I'm concerned. And you don't need a mega machine to play it as we all believed (atm I'm only running an AMD Athlon 1900+, 1Gb RAM and a 96xx video... (soon to change) it runs OK on medium settings and is still a treat for the eyeballs).

@econ21 I also agree, it seems a lot more subtle in the way it delivers a better challenge at higher levels, not as clumsy with the +stats. And, oh yes!, RTR was a treat. And this is all to come for M2TW.
I can't wait.

[fallen851]

Why the debacle with RTW?

I often don't notice bugs in games. But with RTW, I remember starting a game as the Iberians, and immediately noticing my generals were blue...

I also remember when for fun in a custom battle, I took 8 units of Egyptian Cavalry, and ran them into 8 Greek phalanx units with generals cavarly head on. I did this to check out the neat dust effects the cavalry created.

Then as I anticipated the massacre, the cavalry routed the phalanx, despite hitting directly from the front. No flanking.

Of course this totally didn't turn me off from RTW, it does have a lot going for it, but what upsets me is the potential it could have had, if they had spent the time to fix the little stuff. Like the pila bug, in 1.3 no pilas, in 1.5 pilas in melee.

That, and the AI being braindead. I spend about 3 months creating a mod for RTW, only to play campaign and realize even with all my changes, the game wasn't much more fun. After you gain a small "empire" as any nation in RTW, even with mods, the game is over. You can't lose.

Oh well. RTW could have been so much more, and the changes required aren't exactly massive, CA just needs to do the work, and do it right.

[econ21]

RTW could have been so much more, and the changes required aren't exactly massive, CA just needs to do the work, and do it right.

I agree some small tweaks could have made RTW more challenging. And to be fair, some of them have been done in M2TW. For example, the AI is better at keeping out of reach of a superior human army on the campaign map. And it does more often double up armies, so they can be mutually supporting.

However, I think you are being too harsh in implying it is easy to program an AI that can beat a skilled player in a game as complex as RTW. I've played a fair number of historical wargames and I can't recall one that could do that. To get that, I think you have to simplify the game options (like chess), let the AI cheat/get major bonuses (like Civ) or bring in the computer's speed edge (like RTS)

After you gain a small "empire" as any nation in RTW, even with mods, the game is over. You can't lose.

This is probably still true of M2TW, although there are some fun late game challenges to spice it up (Mongols, Timurids, Aztecs). Plus the campaign time limit is tighter. However, it seems to take M2TW longer to get to that "tipping point" when you are too big to be beat. I got to turn 90+ as England twice, without feeling it was getting too easy. Yes, I was not going to lose but it was challenging to hold onto what I had and incrementally increase it. On VH neighbouring factions tend to pile in on you. Plus, while I could win 1:2 odds battles in RTR, I would not like to chance it in M2TW. Avoiding sacking and obeying the Pope may help restrain the human advantage.

Playing Civ4 last night, I did think "why can't TW be this challenging?". In that game, on higher difficulty levels, being at war with a couple of AI factions can be a real threat and even if you survive it's quite likely you will lose at the end (they will build the spaceship first). I think the RTW/M2TW strategic AI needs to be programmed to be a more brutal - defend its provinces with decent stacks, accumulate an enormous army of several full stacks before seriously attacking and then mercilessly devour human settlements one by one; ideally in cooperation with an ally or two. It could do that in STW, but has not got there with the RTW style map.

My impression so far from my English games is that the strategic AI lacks a killer instinct; its wars often seem rather half-hearted. However, England has a rather safe strategic position. We are starting a HRE PBM in the Throne Room so this may provide a better test. In MTW, HRE was one faction where the AI could overrun me, piling in from all sides.

[dismal]

As someone who has a job, I consider $40 for a game that you play for hours to be a good deal. The time is worth far more than the $.

[DensterNY]

As a fan of Total war who has played MTW, MTW:VI, RTW, RTW: BI I have to say that CA is definitely moving in a good direction with MTW2, especially since the latest patch was released. I'm playing a campaign on VH/VH and fine the AI doing some smart things that I hadn't previously experienced with such as:

* Rallying out from behind walls rather than being starved in sieges
* Continually pushing out my merchants to hurt my income stream
* Starting wars to thwart my expansion and growth rather than sit back and watch me become a behemoth.
* Fighting more cohesively than in RTW but not as singularly as MTW

I know it doesn't seem like big advances but it does translate into greater enjoyment and challenge which is the case after all isn't it?

Overall as a previous poster said for $40 or $50 bucks and the fun you'll get out of it, its a definite buy.

[redriver]

I waited to buy M2TW after the RTW debacle, where bugs are still present, despite a community pointing them out.

But it seems like the same bug had bitten M2TW, and it will be a game with maybe a few patches, but largely unsupported, and with grevious bugs. This is unacceptable to me. Do you guys think that CA has changed their policy from RTW and will support this game?

Furthermore I have to upgrade my computer to run it, which will cost additionally.

Is M2TW worth the price for me?

dead on.. ya hit it on the head bro!
and if ya think RTW was bad meet a new champ! don't recall RTW ever had that many glarin' gamebrakin' bugs this game has had on release!
also, RTW graphics are more than pleasin' especially if ya look at some mods that use medieval theme to make it more fair to compare...

my vote was a big fat NO. I didn't buy the game for 2 reasons:
1) don't have the hardware to enjoy the only thin' m2tw is good for - graphics
2) too many bugs and we already have mtw game.. with more deapth and features just lesser graphics...

[Lord_hazard]

It will be. Im sure the game will be fixed in due time. Just sad they the pubs had to rush the devs (atleast thats what i think is the most logical explanation.).

[Odin]

No it isnt. Most new releases now are mediocre beta's that get the label "gold" and they are put out. You buy a new PC game today at release, you can count on some blemishs. If you like the give and take of testing features reporting bugs and participating in solutions by all means shell out your 50.00.

Personally I dont want to be a paying beta tester.

[Bijo]

@fallen
What I say to you is this: don't get it. This game, wherein many bugs are, is not worth $40 or $50 whatever it costs (forgot the price already, I'd like to forget :P). Or perhaps it is, as it's become the standard to release buggy unfinished games?
Sure, it can be enjoyed, but you'll notice things are wrong therewith as soon as you start playing or when you just pay enough attention (which I wouldn't recommend). But if you decide getting it, just enjoy it (and I'd say don't come to this forum to read about bugs and stuff, heh heh).

[Slug For A Butt]

As someone who has a job, I consider $40 for a game that you play for hours to be a good deal. The time is worth far more than the $.

Comgratulations on having a a job dismal, I'm proud of you. ( Hey, what a way to get money).
But seriously, that sounds a little condescending. I think the game is worth every penny, but I don't feel the need to tell everyone that my money is worth more than theirs because I've got a job. You know, a lot of the younger generation here probably earn their money too.
But... "As someone that has a job" I'm glad that you are enjoying it. I enjoy it too.

[Fookison]

Worth every penny, er dollar spent on this game. My buddy and I have waited for this game for 2 years since RTW came out and we said, we need MTW with those graphics. It went beyond where we anticipated in the game play as well and are loving the great hours of gaming joy!!! Best TW game yet and certainly an improvement on the original game........Bummer to those who are not having a good experience. I like the massive increase in strategy required for the game play period and have not experienced many of the technical glitches some are having.

[Ars Moriendi]

M2TW : is it worth the money I spent on it ?

Let's see how it compares in terms of economic efficiency, dollars per hour of fun :

- football, ticket : 60$ / 2 hours = 30$/h (our team won)
- bar, wine : 30$ / 2 hours = 15$/h (not too drunk)
- movie, DVD : 20$ / 4 hours = 5$/h (good movie, saw it twice)
- movie, theater: 7$ / 2 hours = 3.5$/h (my gf liked it)
- book, 300p : 25$ / 10 hours = 2.5$/h (I'm a slow reader)
- M2TW, 50$ / 100 hours = 0.5$/h (if I play it at least as much as MTW)

The only cheaper form of entertainment I can think of is television.

Notes :
- 100 hours means less than 2h per week for a year - many of us will play more than this.
- no other video game ever got me above 100 hrs of play (except for Angband, but that one was free)
- yes, I do realize that the quality and intensity of enjoyment is a big factor : there's movies I'd pay much more to see, there's no football game I'd pay anything for, and I've read books that are priceless (to me).

[Ser Clegane]

But seriously, that sounds a little condescending

I do not think that was meant to be condescending.

When you have a full-time job that gives you a decent income your criteria as to what qualifies as a game that is worth its money might change (they certainly did for me).
Relative to my student times time has now become more precious when compared to money.
So, now, if I can really enjoy a game for 10-20 hours, I would consider 40EUR to be a fair deal, even if I lose my interest in that game after these 10-20 hours.
As a student, long-term replay values of a game certainly were more important to me as I could not afford to buy a game very often while I had more time to actually play a game that I bought (e.g., nowadays I will probably never be able to finish a campaign with all available factions)

[econ21]

Ser Clegane has a point, but earning a wage does not necessarily mean money for games is easy to come by ... if your significant other does not approve of your hobby.

[dismal]

Ser Clegane has a point, but earning a wage does not necessarily mean money for games is easy to come by ... if your significant other does not approve of your hobby.

Yes, well, that's where the time issue comes in as well. For me time to play is more valuable than the money by far, so I want that time to be enjoyable.

Anyway, I wan't trying to make this about me so I made as generic a comment as possible.

[DensterNY]

Ser Clegane has a point, but earning a wage does not necessarily mean money for games is easy to come by ... if your significant other does not approve of your hobby.

Hehe... the dreaded significant other who doesn't appreciate the necessity for conquest and glory in a man's heart. They're more feared than the Mongol Horde and are more of a hindrance to an empire than the Pope.

[Zasz1234]

Definately worth the money. The TW games are getting closer to that sweet sweet goal of Civ games with playable battles. Diplomacy is best yet in this game esp with the Pope so the added complexity on the big map is what did it for me.

The sig other definately makes playing a bit harder

[Slug For A Butt]

Ser Clegane has a point, but earning a wage does not necessarily mean money for games is easy to come by ... if your significant other does not approve of your hobby.

Sod £30 for the game! I've had to justify over £300 for another machine to play the game as the good Lord intended. That's an expensive game... especially as far as my wife (boss ) is concerned.
Clegane made valid points. Personally, I think having to pay monthly for my mortgage, bills, car, motorbike, daughters etc. should mean I'm more insolvent than most. But I think £30 for a game I'll get months of fun from is cheap.
My only gripe was dismal sounding condescending, almost patronising to other members who maybe received it as a gift or had it bought for them. Apparently his job and hence earned money makes his opinion more valid because its his earned money. I maybe a little too confrontational sometimes (I'm sure I'll be hearing from econ21 ), but I would never have dreamt of patronising the other members in this way.

[pianonator]

Goodness folks. You'd think Medieval 2: Total War had run over your puppy or something. As has been stated, lots of games come out with bugs. However, most are minor. Yes, I'm as angry as all'y'all about the billmen, but I have faith that they'll be fixed. M2TW is playing fine for me, and I was actually quite happy on vanilla RTW for 1 and a half campaigns. I already have the first patch for M2TW, and I can patiently wait for a second one and still have fun. And I totally agree with the price breakdown idea. M2TW has already paid for itself in wages of mental health, and I just bought it over Christmas break. Yes, I think M2TW was worth all the hype, as was RTW and MTW. (Never played Shogun - does that make me a bad person?)

I'll be totally honest with you - I read that this game was in development last Winter. This summer, when it was time to get my College Laptop (yay I'm a freshman), I made sure I got one with a fast processor, big hard drive, and good graphics card (like anyone who does any research before buying things does, instead of just buying a Dell Latitude because your college tells you to) bearing in mind that this game would come out eventually. My Acer is serving me well.

My advice: If you are a fan of Total War already and have played your fill of RTW, get it, because you'll love it. If you're a fan of RTS, go for it - it doesn't get any better than this. Chances are, you're not even on this forum unless you're already a fan of the series. Oh, make sure your computer can handle it. Yes, I know, most of the game's improvements over Rome came with the graphics, but it's a solid, solid game. The bugs can be fixed, and so far haven't really bugged me that much anyway. If your computer can't handle it, don't get a new computer on account of this game, but a new graphics card may not be a bad thing if you know you want the game. One hour of playing the game and you'll feel justified in your expenditure.

All in all, if you're looking to buy a game and your computer can handle it, go for it. If not, it'll be here for when you are. M2TW is huge and full of possibilities and replay time. This series keeps getting better and better. Kudos, CA!

Terribly sorry for that long post. I tend to ramble.

Edit: Ah yes, Significant Other: Total War. It is difficult.

[Slug For A Butt]

My friend, rambling aside... well said.
And STW was phenomenal when it arrived, but I don't wear rose tinted spectacles and think you would be disappointed if you played it now. It is a good game, but it is also very limited in it's diversity and (for me) longevity in terms of playability.
(I'm now putting my tin helmet on) Stick with RTW or M2TW as far as I'm concerned.