French and Sergeant Spearmen - Bug?

[Bodom2005]

Hello , although I am new to the forum I have had some previous experience with M2:TW, since i ve already finished the game with the Spaniards on M/M...

Ok , so this is my second game, this time with the French and although I am still in the beginning I have the impression that this time my infantry gets killed quite more easily than in my first game... The worst situation of all occured with French sergeant spearmen who seem to get slaughtered by everything they encounter : they first time they got owned by muslim archers on melee (!) during the siege of Palermo I dismissed their loss as bad luck , but after playing the game a little more it seems as if a pattern is being formed here : trying to storm some other castle last night , I equipped my Sergeant spearmen with ladders and ordered them to climb up the walls and attack some poor peasants. Well it seems after all that the peasants werent that poor after all since after some time they routed my "professional" sergeant spearmen while taking minimum losses!

Is this a bug, or is it just that French early infantry sucks majorly?!


FIY , I finished the first game unpatched which i installed just before the French game...Has the game balance changed so much since ver 1.0?

[Von Nanega]

Peasants in vanilla seem to be overpowered. I think this is due to their fast andd simple attack animation. So all in all I think this helps the AI vs Human players since the AI tends to build units like peasants. But also remember the French in M2TW are set up to be a Cavalry faction. Make use of this!
As far as peasants, make them yourself! I have several gold chevroned peasants running around in almost all of my games.

[Bodom2005]

So even if the french infantry has the same stats as other infantry its less effective?

[Von Nanega]

So even if the french infantry has the same stats as other infantry its less effective?

As stated in other threads, stats do not tell the whole tale. Attack animation seems to trump unit stats. Sending spearmen up ladders no matter the faction will get them killed. Muslim archers are very good in melee. I have played Sicily on several occasions. In these games my Muslim archers had to be ordered into melee to save the day. They performed very well. In their description it says they can fight well in melee, and I have found this to so.

[FrauGloer]

So even if the french infantry has the same stats as other infantry its less effective?

No, the stats for "Sergeant Spearmen" units are the same for all factions that can build them. What makes them less effective than peasants apart from their slower animation is the shield bug, which acutally makes their shields a disadvantage in melee. For more info, view the Shield Problem(s) thread.

Edit: As for them dying in siege assaults, defenders get a huge bonus against troops attacking with ladders. Heck, even Dismounted Feudal Knights take a severe beating by peasants in this case.

[Bodom2005]

It's rather surprising that CA hasn't already addressed this bug , given all their experience with previous Total WAR games... Equip Sergeant Spear men with better physical armor and a submachine gun perhaps?

[FrauGloer]

It's not only Sergeant Spearmen that suffer from this bug, it's virtually all shield-bearing units. The fact that Sergeant Spearmen don't have much armour to begin with only makes it more noticable. I'm also quite amazed that CA didn't notice this earlier, but even in the community the issue didn't come up until recently.

[Carl]

Also, any unit that says it is "effective vs. cav" or "Bounous Fighting Cav" or somthing similar suffers penalties fighting other infantry anyway.

[FrauGloer]

Also, any unit that says it is "effective vs. cav" or "Bounous Fighting Cav" or somthing similar suffers penalties fighting other infantry anyway.

Isn't that only if their weapon is a "spear" as defined in the EDU? IIRC, having the spear_bonus_x trait is what affects their performance vs cavalry, while the weapn "spear" affects their performance vs infantry. At least, that's what it says in the comments section. E.g. halberdiers and some such don't suffer a malus vs infantry, but still have a bonus vs cavalry.

[Lusted]

Isn't that only if their weapon is a "spear" as defined in the EDU? IIRC, having the spear_bonus_x trait is what affects their performance vs cavalry, while the weapn "spear" affects their performance vs infantry. At least, that's what it says in the comments section. E.g. halberdiers and some such don't suffer a malus vs infantry, but still have a bonus vs cavalry.

Well all the spear armed units have the spear and spear_bonus attributes so yes they do fare worse in melee against non-cav units as they get penalties against non-cav units.

[Carl]

Yes, but you only get one of the effective vs. cav statments if they have the Spear Attribute. A Spear Bonous has no effect.

EDIT: Just checked in game. If it says "effective vs. cav" they have a penalty vs. infantry.

[FrauGloer]

Yes, but you only get one of the effective vs. cav statments if they have the Spear Attribute. A Spear Bonous has no effect.

EDIT: Just checked in game. If it says "effective vs. cav" they have a penalty vs. infantry.

Ah rats... Well, one more thing for CA to fix, as polearms should have a bonus vs cav without getting a penalty vs infantry.

[Carl]

Not really, it's not a bug, it's what they intended all along. Bassicly it's part of the spear beat cav, swords beat spear, 2-handers bat sword, cav beat 2-hander mechanic they have going, (NOTE: Only works if you have the 2-hander and sheild fixes in place).

Pikes in case your wondering are a "Beat Everything, but only from the front" unit.

p.s. we know it's intended as thats what the comments in the unit file says.

[FrauGloer]

Not really, it's not a bug, it's what they intended all along. Bassicly it's part of the spear beat cav, swords beat spear, 2-handers bat sword, cav beat 2-hander mechanic they have going, (NOTE: Only works if you have the 2-hander and sheild fixes in place).

Pikes in case your wondering are a "Beat Everything, but only from the front" unit.

p.s. we know it's intended as thats what the comments in the unit file says.

I'm fine with spearmen being at a disadvantage vs sword-/axe-/mace-/whatever-men. After all, a spear is unwieldy in melee. But in your (and CA's current) rock-paper-scissors system, the fact that Billmen and their polearm equivalents excelled at fighting cavalry, is completely ignored. I'm not asking that they be an uber-unit capable of beating both cavalry and infantry easily, but their main historic use (in the case of billmen) was fighting cavalry. They should have at least a minor bonus vs cavalry, IMO. After all, the English right now lack any decent anti-cav unit (unless you mod in Armoured Sarges, that is). It worked out fine in M1TW, why change it in M2TW? Maybe reduce their AP a bit in exchange?

[Carl]

I wasn't trying to defend CA, BTW. Just saying that it was what they'd meant to do. I agree they should get a slight bonus vs. cav as JHI do. but it's worth noting that Gold ASrmour Spear militia are nearly as good as basic Armoured sarges and can see off Fuedal and Mailed Knights and give heavier stuff issues.

p.s. remeber i run the Sheild fix and that means Spearmen brace for the charge and inflict heavy losses on enemy cav that do a frontal charge into them.

[Lamprey]

Don't forget that your infantry were French. That in itself is a major morale penalty, especially vs. the HRE

[Ring_Master\]

Don't forget that your infantry were French. That in itself is a major morale penalty, especially vs. the HRE

EXACTLY my thoughts anyway.. those darn senile French units.

[Slug For A Butt]

Don't forget that your infantry were French. That in itself is a major morale penalty, especially vs. the HRE

[Rollon]

remeber i run the Sheild fix and that means Spearmen brace for the charge and inflict heavy losses on enemy cav that do a frontal charge into them.

Carl, what exactly is the Shield fix and how do you make your Spearmen brace?

[FrauGloer]

Don't forget that your infantry were French. That in itself is a major morale penalty, especially vs. the HRE

Sshhh! Don't make jokes at the cost of someone else's nationality, it might offend some users and the mods don't like that. Incidently, I was told off by one for joking about french military prowess, too... but I'm much better behaved now!

[Carl]

Carl, what exactly is the Shield fix and how do you make your Spearmen brace?

The Sheilds Fix is Foz's

i'll edit in a link in a moment. If you don't hav the sheild fix on the won't brace. thats the problem with them really. they don't brace against cav charges ATM in vanillia.

[Carl]

The fix is here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=110

[Rollon]

The fix is here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=110

Thank you!

[Lamprey]

Sshhh! Don't make jokes at the cost of someone else's nationality, it might offend some users and the mods don't like that. Incidently, I was told off by one for joking about french military prowess, too... but I'm much better behaved now!

Aye, I'll not joke about folks any more. I wouldn't want someone coming after me!

[sir bob a lot]

hi
i some Spearmen and thy dont last long in a game
why is that ?
and ley Spearmen dont last longer than m/ Spearmen
and why billman so crap arnt thy like Spearmen tho with out shild?
why have them ?

playing england by the way