My first go with the Turks: Volume II

[Odin]

So its 1200 in my turk campaign, thanks to the inputs of a lot of memebers i was able to compile a decent strategy and force structure to make myself the dominant power in the MTW world.

So a quick recap: Took all of the egyptian lands and the almohads and stopped at morrocco. I have finally defeated the Byzantines in a bloody 30 year war that saw me loose a few battles and good generals. In the end the battle for Bulgaria with over 4000 men combined was the tipping point. The Byzantine lost 3 heirs in that battle and subsequently lost thier offensive potency.

I have taken Constantanople as my new capital, all of the balkans and have a fleet that dominates the med and black sea. My northern borders are in Hungary and Moldovia. I am at war with the Polish who is currently being removed from thier homelands by my ally the cumans. I have created a massive fortress defensive base in the central empire (Gerogia, rum, armenia) garrisoned by seasoned units and a 6 star general.

The western empire (north africa) has a rapid response army in egypt and that army is responsible for the islands as well. My northern empire is rebuilding its army with citadels being contructed in Bulgaria and Constanople, and a fortress under construction in venice.

I have 3 generals with 4 stars in the north, 1 5 star general, and an 8 star heir. Overall I am satisfied with how things went and where I stand, sadly most of my forces are dominated by THA's and AHC with sacren infantry. While this force structure served me well it wont hold up in battle against the massive army if the french.

So a few questions:

1. A general concensus on Turcoman foot soldiers? Nice scrappy unit that I liken to bohemian bowmen. Should I invest in them?

2. AHC, while a nice unit they cant handle heavy horse units what should I be looking for to replace these unit? I use them mostly for flanking and occasional charges.

3. What units come available to me in the "middle era" ?

4.Prepare for the mongols or press the offensive? The north is open, the Polish are in taters and the Bohemians are really all that is left between me and the Baltic sea. While I am inclined to press the offensive, my goal isnt to get complete conquest ASAP. The mongols are coming and while gamey (imho) I have a choke point in Georgia (fortress with lots of spears).

thanks again for all the help in the past, this chat is open to anyone who wants to put thier 2 cents in on any issue.

Thanks,

Odin

[caravel]

I have 3 generals with 4 stars in the north, 1 5 star general, and an 8 star heir. Overall I am satisfied with how things went and where I stand, sadly most of my forces are dominated by THA's and AHC with sacren infantry. While this force structure served me well it wont hold up in battle against the massive army if the french.

Don't be so sure... invest in morale upgrades (religious buildings), and have two bases for training troops. A base for producing heavily armoured AHC and Saracens and another for lightly armoured ones for the desert. Don't forget that Ghazis make good flankers against those armoured european troops. Try unleashing them on the flanks of some Chivalric Sergeants.

1. A general concensus on Turcoman foot soldiers? Nice scrappy unit that I liken to bohemian bowmen. Should I invest in them?

They're cheap and cheerful, and better than archers. They're also armoured, but their morale is poor. You may as well produce these though, as produce archers, and they have a valour bonus in anatolia. Futuwwa are better IMHO, as they make good flankers. I have often decimated the AI using well time Futuwwa rushes. Turcoman Foot's armour and rabble formation means they fare better when under fire however.

2. AHC, while a nice unit they cant handle heavy horse units what should I be looking for to replace these unit? I use them mostly for flanking and occasional charges.

They're not supposed to handle other heavy cavalry, that is the spearmen and polearms/axes role. You can still use the AHC to flank the enemy cav and finish the job. When trained in Armenia with a master horsebreeder, they get +2 valour, add some armour to that and you've got one of the best cavalry units there are. You're only alternatives are Ghulam Cavalry or Khwarazmian Cavalry but those two are overpriced and still not better than AHC.

3. What units come available to me in the "middle era" ?

Once you've teched up to Janissaries you may want to replace Futuwwa and Turcoman foot with JI. These will be available in the high era (1205 - 1320)

4.Prepare for the mongols or press the offensive? The north is open, the Polish are in taters and the Bohemians are really all that is left between me and the Baltic sea. While I am inclined to press the offensive, my goal isnt to get complete conquest ASAP. The mongols are coming and while gamey (imho) I have a choke point in Georgia (fortress with lots of spears).

You'll have to secure Georgia, Armenia, Khazar, and Volga Bulgaria from the mongols. They can appear in any of those provinces, though usually always Khazar. If you don't prepare you will lose a lot of your core provinces, but it makes for an interesting campaign.

[Odin]

Once you've teched up to Janissaries you may want to replace Futuwwa and Turcoman foot with JI. These will be available in the high era (1205 - 1320)

I knew that Jannissaries would be a great replacement for the core of my armies but never having played the turks I never bothered to fathom thier cost. If I understand it correctly, there is a valor bonus for them in bulgaria, and it takes a grand mosque and a military academy to get them.

Thats an expensive unit.... I certainly have the florins, but if my assumption is correct that means they can only be built in one province.

You'll have to secure Georgia, Armenia, Khazar, and Volga Bulgaria from the mongols. They can appear in any of those provinces, though usually always Khazar. If you don't prepare you will lose a lot of your core provinces, but it makes for an interesting campaign.

Having played for years I know that the mongol event can be crippling, thus my concern for a northern expansion. I guess my question should have been, do I expend my energies for the next 25 years on prep for the mongols, or expansion north of my empire?

I can probaly do both but it would come down to my generalship, not my troop superiority should I choose both. While I am confident I can defeat the AI 95% of the time, I do struggle with the mongols, I always have.

Also I do have multiple training depots for armored and non armored units (including AHC). I like AHC they fit my style, just thought the Turks might get a better unit in 1205.

[caravel]

I knew that Jannissaries would be a great replacement for the core of my armies but never having played the turks I never bothered to fathom thier cost. If I understand it correctly, there is a valor bonus for them in bulgaria, and it takes a grand mosque and a military academy to get them.

Thats an expensive unit.... I certainly have the florins, but if my assumption is correct that means they can only be built in one province.

Expensive but well worth the money. You will a military academy as well as the usual weapons/armour buildings of the correct level. To build a military academy you will first need a grand mosque, this is unique of course which is why you can only train janissaries in one province. You can employ a cheesy strategy though. Once the Military academy is being built you can destroy the grand mosque and build it elsewhere, then build another military academy there. Rinse and repeat etc. The valour bonuses for Janissaries are as follows:
JA: Georgia
JI: None
JHI: Bulgaria

JA are simply not worth it, so it is better to build the grand mosque in bulgaria and start there.

Having played for years I know that the mongol event can be crippling, thus my concern for a northern expansion. I guess my question should have been, do I expend my energies for the next 25 years on prep for the mongols, or expansion north of my empire?

I would concentrate on teching up and wait for the mongols to pass before expanding further, though it's up to you. Try to strengthen your current positions and abandon any provinces that are not worth holding onto for now.

I can probaly do both but it would come down to my generalship, not my troop superiority should I choose both. While I am confident I can defeat the AI 95% of the time, I do struggle with the mongols, I always have.

Their weakness is their lack of good infantry especially spears. The mongol warriors aren't bad if used correctly (skirmish turned off) but the AI never does. They are vulnerable to your cavalry staging hit and run charges. This serves to lure the MHC towards you. When fighting the horde you should fight even your offensive battles defensively. Let the MHC waste themselves pinned down by saracens then send in ghazis to attack their rear. You should give them a good shooting up with your bows and crossbows (no arbs for the Turks!) before they get too close. Your archers (Futuwwa, Janissary Infantry, Turcoman Foot Soldiers) are vital for tacking the MHAs. These devils will ruin all of your plans if you don't have missiles with which to decimate their ranks with. You should have some crossbows up front to shoot exclusively at the MHCs. I have fought them in Georgia by setting up my formation, on a hill, with ghazis hiding in the trees on each wing. The saracens screen extends from one wood to another (sometimes there is only one wood available so you have to make the best of it) and the enemy must enter the woods to attempt to flank them. I have lured MHC into the woods and slaughtered them on many occasions. Many times I have held off 7-8000 mongols with my 2000 strong force, eventually with a bit of luck they will get the message and reinforcements will come on and withdraw. The following year they'll be back again, so you need to be ready!

Also I do have multiple training depots for armored and non armored units (including AHC). I like AHC they fit my style, just thought the Turks might get a better unit in 1205.

AFAIK in High the turks get, crossbows and Janissary units, as well as the updated Ghulam Bodyguards. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head (I can't remember when Khwarazmian are available from as I never use them). In late you'll get Ottoman Infantry, Sipahi and Sipahi of the Porte. The last two are nothing special. Sipahi of the porte are 20 man bodyguard horse archers, and Ottoman Sipahi are a poor cavalry unit that doesn't supersede... anything. Ottoman Infantry are ok AP attack flanker/skirmishers, they're cheap enough and get a valour bonus in Rum. They're a good replacement for Ghazis as they're more versatile but lack the Ghazis' punch.

[Kavhan Isbul]

If the Cumans aren your allies, I will not bother taking Khazar and Volga Bulgaria. It is much easier to stop the Mongols at rivers, such as in Levidia or Muscovy. Georgia will give a defensive army a serious height advantage, and it helps a lot. I would leave them a chance to establish a foothold and simply defeat army after army they send in Georgia. They usually will send the major part of their armies towards Levidia and Muscovy, so it should not be so hard to hold them in Georgia with a good defensive army with JHIs and plenty of missile troops. And the Armenians are great for dealing with the Mongol Horse Archers - sooner or later they catch up with them and then it is a massacre. Finally, Georgia is close to your production centers and replenishing you army there should be easy, compared to having to cross the steppes to get to Volga Bulgaria. I would worry more about the French, especially if they have built a huge navy, rather than the Mongols, as with the latter it is a matter of weathering the storm in a few battles, and with the former it may take a long war of attrition before you can feel your Empire is secured.

[Sensei Warrior]

I think you should continue to expand. Maybe its the roleplay in me, but whenever I sat and waited for the Mongols, they always disapoint me.

Whenever I have gone about my business, and pretended the Mongol Invasion wasn't going to happen, that's when the Mongols really shined, and livened things up.

But do what you like, either way should be interesting.

[caravel]

Georgia will give a defensive army a serious height advantage, and it helps a lot. I would leave them a chance to establish a foothold and simply defeat army after army they send in Georgia. They usually will send the major part of their armies towards Levidia and Muscovy, so it should not be so hard to hold them in Georgia with a good defensive army with JHIs and plenty of missile troops. And the Armenians are great for dealing with the Mongol Horse Archers - sooner or later they catch up with them and then it is a massacre. Finally, Georgia is close to your production centers and replenishing you army there should be easy, compared to having to cross the steppes to get to Volga Bulgaria.

Georgia is easily the best province to take on the Mongols. The problem is that if it does fall, they will begin expanding into trebizond and armenia. If you have valuable buildings there such as a grand mosque, this is not what you want. Another possibility is that the Mongols emerge in Armenia as well as Khazar. If this happens and you've no suitable garrison there to face them, you will probably lose your core provinces, unless you can get troops into that landlocked region asap. It can be a nightmare to stop the Mongols once they gain a foothold in asia minor.

[Odin]

If the Cumans aren your allies, I will not bother taking Khazar and Volga Bulgaria. It is much easier to stop the Mongols at rivers, such as in Levidia or Muscovy. Georgia will give a defensive army a serious height advantage, and it helps a lot. I would leave them a chance to establish a foothold and simply defeat army after army they send in Georgia. They usually will send the major part of their armies towards Levidia and Muscovy, so it should not be so hard to hold them in Georgia with a good defensive army with JHIs and plenty of missile troops. And the Armenians are great for dealing with the Mongol Horse Archers - sooner or later they catch up with them and then it is a massacre. Finally, Georgia is close to your production centers and replenishing you army there should be easy, compared to having to cross the steppes to get to Volga Bulgaria. I would worry more about the French, especially if they have built a huge navy, rather than the Mongols, as with the latter it is a matter of weathering the storm in a few battles, and with the former it may take a long war of attrition before you can feel your Empire is secured.

Quick note of intrest: There are no more russian factions, the Volga Bulgars got all the way to finland and have crushed the Lithuanians. Kiev is contolled by the cumans as they have most of the black sea, up to Volaniya and now have parts of Poland proper.

So my guess is that the volga bulgarians will face most of the mongol wrath, still I have seen on more then one occassion the mongols head south and play in the holy land.

The French have taken most of germany reclaimed all of france and have reduced the danes to scania and the home province. England is half scottish, half rebel, I am anticipating a reemergence of the English sometime and that might help to offset the french later on.

Iberia is half portugese half aragon so no real threat to the french thier and thier western borders are now touching me, the pope (who has taken all of Italy except for sicily), and a surprisingly robust Bohemian empire that expanded into the Baltic.

Its only a matter of time before a french army shows up on my door step, and with the prospect of the mongols coming in 30 years I could be in a protracted two front war.

[Odin]

I think you should continue to expand. Maybe its the roleplay in me, but whenever I sat and waited for the Mongols, they always disapoint me.

Whenever I have gone about my business, and pretended the Mongol Invasion wasn't going to happen, that's when the Mongols really shined, and livened things up.

But do what you like, either way should be interesting.

I concede your point that its best to go about my business, and frankly I consider myself gamey here for prepping georgia for the enevitable mongol invasion.

That said I have taken a measure of pride in this particular campaign mainly because I fell into a lot of traps that non muslim players and still ended up achieving my goals. This empire came at a lot of expense, the Byz campaign was not an easy go, so I would like to see this empire make it until I have gotten to the point where my defeat is impossible( you know when its you and one other big player, Thats when I tend to end my games).

[Vladimir]

The Mongols are easy (gamey). Focus on taking Kazar (lesser in XL), max out the fortress (or one level lower), pack in anti-armor units (mercs if you can), and wait. Make sure you take out the occasional cannon they have and they WILL assault. A decent (but not your best) general helps too (you WILL loose him). They will assault your fortifications until your garrison starves (2 – 3 turns). Finally clean up the rabble; the horde taken out in <5 years. If you HAVE to take them on in open battle (not recommended) do so in Georgia or anywhere but the steppe.

For the different archers I recommend Turcoman foot for cooler climes and Futwas for the desert. It should be easy if you specialize your cities, however there’s rarely a need for anything other than THAs.

[Sensei Warrior]

Its the dodgy campaigns that are always the most remembered. Just remember 'Great risks bring great rewards.'

[Martok]

Just remember 'Great risks bring great rewards.'

....Or you end up looking like the villiage idiot.

[Sensei Warrior]

It wouldn't be the first time for me, Martok. When the Dunce hat goes on you just start a new campaign.

[caravel]

For the different archers I recommend Turcoman foot for cooler climes and Futwas for the desert. It should be easy if you specialize your cities, however there’s rarely a need for anything other than THAs.

Turcoman foot are actually better than Desert archers and cheaper to support. The name "Turcoman Foot Soldier" is misleading as they are in fact archers (Turcoman Archers). Futuwwa are Skirmishers as are Trebizond archers, as they can do well in Melee. I would say that the Turcoman Foot were originally designed to be decent skirmishing infantry but that their stats were hacked during the last minute stat and unit balancing before release. The same goes for Ottoman Sipahi and Ghulam Cavalry. These units were bastardised and their potency taken away. As a result there is an over reliance on AHC which are not a Seljuk/Ottoman unit at all, Saracen Infantry which are fictional and Janissaries which were the elite nor the core of the military. Futuwwa are not Seljuk either. The Turks armies should be all about their cavalry and skirmishers sadly this is not the case.

[Vladimir]

The Turcomen are "armored" which should give them a slight penalty in the desert and encourages you to add more armor. I wouldn't use a ranged unit for anything other than desperate flankers though.

[caravel]

The Turcomen are "armored" which should give them a slight penalty in the desert and encourages you to add more armor. I wouldn't use a ranged unit for anything other than desperate flankers though.

Yes, but apart from being armoured their stats are pretty identical to desert archers IIRC, so they're the best archers to use anywhere apart from in the desert.

Futuwwa and Nizari make great flankers once their quivers are empty. I almost always commit them to melee at some point in a battle and they do very well. The Turks don't have any real Swordsmen until they get the JHI, which are really anti cav pole arms but can do anything, so the Futuwwa fill this role well. Once Janissaries are available, JI are the best skirmisher for the Turks. Ottoman Infantry I find to have a limited role.

[Odin]

I havent got far since my last quick note but this weekend I will get the mongol event. That said I have found the Turcomen footmen to be quite a nice little unit honestly. I committed them to melee agaisnt polish retainers and they didnt break (they didnt win either).

A valored up Turcomen archer with some armor and a general with a decent command rating is a nice unit in the cooler climates of the Balkans. In the desert I have been using exclusive 80% cavalry army no need to use many foot men here those THA are beautiful units with a bit of valor and cheap...

[Odin]

Quick update:

The mongols: as expected they showed up in Kazar and immediately invaded Georgia, after 3 battles they lost approx 6-7 thousand men to my 2k?? Any way the choke point strat worked and now they are scrapping out a meger exsistence in Khazar and trying to make a run at Moscovy.

The cumans betrayed my alliance and invaded bulgaria which they were defeated soundly (I had a bridge to defend). I swept them up to the baltic and they are left with the Crimea and Volynia.

Flanders went rebel and I thought it would be cute to bribe them to get a foothold in western europe for my invasion later on. Well the French didnt like it and kicked me out of there, and now has launched a crusade against me. On top of that the french have decimated my fleets so north africa was wide open which the portugese took advantage of assualting and caputring morrocco.

I am at the point in the campaign where its becoming silly with cash flow and land mass, a civil war might make it intresting but for now the portugal issue is pending and rebuilding my fleet. Dont know if I will keep this campaign going as my victory is really a matter of time... Still I gained a great appreciation for the turks and might just take a day or two off from it and see what the french do.