How Effective Do You Think Militia Spearmen, and Spearmen In General Should Be?

[Carl]

@Zhurkov: Your one of the history trumps balance guys I take it. All I’ll say is that for me I’m more interested in balance and thus I don't CARE what would have happened historically.

As an aside, the knights I'd expect them to beat are actually only a half again as expensive as them and considering they are anti-cav I’d expect them to beat these knight with heavy losses, (with silver armour they do this great for me with my shield fix).

The bonuses are as follows: 8 attack extra against cav, reflect charge abilities, (I presume this means that they get the attack bonus of the enemies Charge value as well), and an as yet undisclosed extra.

Ignoring the unknown extra, Militia Spearmen get 5+8+6 against charging mailed/fuedal knights for attack. Or 19 attack. The Knights get 16 attack.

Very few factions are meant to have a cavalry counter that can simply grind the cav up on their own.

The problem is this is exactly what ALL spear units are actually supposed to do.

I also did a quick check of unit lists. England, Scotland, Portugual, Hungary, Poland, and Spain all lack decent Spears. The 4 Italians get their spear militia and France and HRE get armoured spears. Denmark seemed weak here too.

Again, not every faction is meant to be able to field a foot army and win.

Of course not. but without good spears, enemy cav render any foot forces totally pointless unless they are Dismounted Saxon Knights or better, (13/20 is about the minimum, give or take a bit).

Their spears are meant to receive charges and simply die slowly enough that the shock infantry can work over the enemy engaging the spears.

The problem is, that isn't what happens with spear vs. cav or anything vs. 2-hander fights though.

Their are 2 possibilities, (spears 3 ranks deep):

1. The cav charges in and badly damages out the front rank of spearmen but they also suffer heavy damage to their own front rank. The second rank of knights then hits and wipes out the remnants of the front rank and badly damages the second rank whilst suffers moderate damage, (charge effects have dropped off by this point so the reflect charge seems less deadly). After this about half the knights and half the spearmen are dead. The spearmen then massacre the remaining knights.

2. The Knights charge into and annihilate the first 2 ranks for the loss of their own front rank and lightly/moderately damage the 3rd rank. about 6 or 7 seconds later the spearmen rout with about half the enemy knights dead. Occasionally a really powerful cav unit will have more than half left.

Their isn't any situation in which spears pin" cav that I’ve been able to produce, they either take the charge with heavy losses on both sides and win by themselves. Or take it with decimation on their side and light to moderate losses to the cav. Theirs never any spearmen grinding up cav moments because spearmen that aren’t annihilated by the charge wipe out the knights normally.

[General Zhukov]

@Zhurkov: Your one of the history trumps balance guys I take it.

That's a fair statement. I would like the units to perform roughly as their historical counterparts did.

The bonuses are as follows: 8 attack extra against cav, reflect charge abilities, (I presume this means that they get the attack bonus of the enemies Charge value as well), and an as yet undisclosed extra.

Wow, I didn't know the spearmen bonuses vs. cav were that extensive. That's militia spearmen too? Those really do seem to justify cav losing a decent amount on the charge. And with 13 unupgraded attack in the general melee, they should give any knights a stiff fight. But I wonder if there are other factors in play that skew the results of cavalry versus infantry?

Of course not. but without good spears, enemy cav render any foot forces totally pointless unless they are Dismounted Saxon Knights or better, (13/20 is about the minimum, give or take a bit).

As I understand it, mounted knights really did dominate the field in western Europe during most of this period. In the vanilla version of the game that is modeled pretty well.

[Carl]

That's a fair statement. I would like the units to perform roughly as their historical counterparts did.

AND

As I understand it, mounted knights really did dominate the field in western Europe during most of this period. In the vanilla version of the game that is modeled pretty well.

As I say, I prefer balance to trump history where necessary. However, I respect your opinions nonetheless. to each their own, (and just a few years ago I’d have had your view on the matter too).

Wow, I didn't know the spearmen bonuses vs. cav were that extensive. That's militia spearmen too? Those really do seem to justify cav losing a decent amount on the charge. And with 13 unupgraded attack in the general melee, they should give any knights a stiff fight. But I wonder if there are other factors in play that skew the results of cavalry versus infantry?

Yeah, it's surprisingly extensive. Papal Guard for example have 22 attack in general melee, and 28 vs. charging Feudal. 30 vs. charging Chivalric's. They can actually beat said Chivalric with some guys left even if the Chivalric charge. 3 gold Chevrons and weapons upgrade adds 4 to those values so it's now 26, 32, and 36 respectively.

For what it's worth, Militia Spearmen can beat Chivalric’s in general melee, if the Chivalric’s don't get to charge them.

[Musashi]

You're having different results than I am Carl... I can field a bunch of Spear Militia, and while they'll take heavy losses on a charge vs say, Feudal Knights, the kill rate then drops quite low... The Feudal Knights will win in the end, but it's a MUCH slower process than if they had charged say, my dismounted knights, or axemen, or something along those lines. Once they're held up like that, my dismounted knights, or axemen can annihilate them by sweeping in from the flanks.

Or I can bring in cavalry to countercharge.

It does work for me.

[Carl]

@Musahsi: How do you fix your sheilds? last time i heard you where using double the sheild skill added to the defence skill wern't you? or have you switched?

If you don't zero the sheild value I find they don't brace properly and the reflect charge effects don't go off fully as a result, (this is what kills the Knights on contact with the spearmen). It also slows down the kill rate in general melee considrebly.

[Musashi]

I actually haven't applied a fix. I don't like the side effects of the fixes, and I like the game well enough in it's current form that I'm not going to make such a drastic change. I'll simply wait for the patch.

But even in the vanilla game I find that spearmen, even when they will ultimately lose to a cavalry squad, will hold them longer than a unit of shock infantry would have. Most shock infantry go down like flies vs. cavalry, which is how the RPS balance was meant to work.

[Carl]

That explains it. I use the sheild Fix, (I thought i'd stated that). When this happens:

1. The cav charges in and badly damages out the front rank of spearmen but they also suffer heavy damage to their own front rank. The second rank of knights then hits and wipes out the remnants of the front rank and badly damages the second rank whilst suffers moderate damage, (charge effects have dropped off by this point so the reflect charge seems less deadly). After this about half the knights and half the spearmen are dead. The spearmen then massacre the remaining knights.

The effect of the cav contacting the spearmen looks very similar to that of cav contacting braced Pikes with the exception that the cav take most of the front row of Spearmen with them. Spea vs. cav fights are over VERY quickly if you apply it.

[antisocialmunky]

To be honest, I rather have a more historic feeling campaign and a balanced MP with price tweaks. Seriously, balance is only requisite on MP.

[Blademun]

I've already stated my opinion on spears plenty. I believe spear milita should be weak and Professional spearmen like Armoured Sarges should be more effective.

Doesn't this forum have a Poll function? Thats what this post needs, a poll.

[Foz]

I'm not really sure what I think the overall fights should look like between spear units and cavalry, but on one point I'm very certain:

I feel that a spear unit able to brace for the incoming cavalry should cause MAD during the initial charge.

I feel this way because cavalry cannot simply trample over guys with spears without largely getting the horses impaled on the veritable wall of spears at the same time. The end result of this ought to be that many horses die, ejecting their riders long distances, those wounded/dead horses rolling through the enemy ranks as high speed projectiles steamrolling the enemy men as well as the ejected riders of its own unit (and their own riders if they weren't thrown from the saddle). I don't really mind that the game doesn't show the spearmen bracing the spears to receive the charge... the point is that they do brace, and the reality of why it was done IS to set the spear, thus hopefully killing the incoming horse... so that kind of action and intent should be reflected in in-game results IMO. Some other factors should perhaps be considered in determining how successful the spearmen are in making that initial stand:

- Mental factors. Training and state of mind are important here, as troops in this situation would be prone to trying to run away in fear, or possibly just freezing up as the mass of cavalry descended on them at high speed. Spear militia would not be less effective because of their equipment or even their training so much as because of their lack of being hardened military men capable of standing tall in such a frightening situation.

- Spearman defense stats. I think this follows logically since units with higher armor/skill/shield values should be able to absorb/avoid/deflect otherwise deadly blows a bit better, even during a charge. I say avoid for skill as I commonly conceptualize it as not only ability to parry, but also ability to actively avoid blows in melee combat. One doesn't have to actually touch an opponent's weapon in order to avoid it, and sometimes simply dodging a blow is far easier and more practical.

- Cavalry defense stats. Again it seems only logical to suggest that a more well-defended knight and horse should in fact survive better.

Offensive stats are of secondary importance here IMO, as I can't imagine what you would do to a long spear or lance's construction to make it any more effective in this situation. The sheer speed and force behind the weapons in this situation pretty much means any grade weapon provided it is constructed correctly will get the job done. IMO this is exactly the reason for the "reflect charge" ability the spears have: that it applies the power of the knight's charge to the attack power of the spear too, which should be the case as the force of the horse hitting the spear would equal that behind the lance during the charge.

Perhaps the offensive stats are different more than anything to indicate the skill level of the given unit using the weapon... which I would freely admit should have some effect: a more capable spearman or knight can in fact do more even in this situation to ensure his blow strikes true than a less capable one can.

To be honest, MAD on impact is my only real concern here, and I'll be largely happy as long as it happens, as it ought to be an unavoidable consequence of cavalry charging into spears. Cavalry charging into a spear formation is really scary stuff from a physics perspective... (and I can only imagine IRL as well for those unlucky enough to have faced it)