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  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Yesterday news broke that Israel and Syria have had unofficial contacts to discuss the future of their relationship - not least in relation to the Golan Heights and Hamas.

    It got derailed by the Lebanon fiasco, but may well be on track again soon.

    Of course Prime Minister Olmert has denied it (or at least any official sanction, but official deniability is crucial to these kind of negotiations) but the Foreign Ministry has accepted that it knew. Today it appears the US was kept in the loop.

    Why everyone feels such shame in making sensible steps towards peace with their enemies, I'll never know, but it shows that there is hope for the region. Until I suppose, the ultra-nationalists on both sides go flip.

    If I had a euro for every time I've heard "No surrender" from the mouth of someone who was at the same time having tea and cakes with his hated foe, I'd...

    Anyway, good news, methinks - and some very interesting solutions. Here's a fun game - speculate on the European country that facilitated all this - somewhere warm this time?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Israeli, Syrian representatives reach secret understandings

    By Akiva Eldar, Haaretz Correspondent

    In a series of secret meetings in Europe between September 2004 and July 2006, Syrians and Israelis formulated understandings for a peace agreement between Israel and Syria.

    The main points of the understandings are as follows:

    An agreement of principles will be signed between the two countries, and following the fulfillment of all commitments, a peace agreement will be signed.

    As part of the agreement on principles, Israel will withdraw from the Golan Heights to the lines of 4 June, 1967. The timetable for the withdrawal remained open: Syria demanded the pullout be carried out over a five-year period, while Israel asked for the withdrawal to be spread out over 15 years.

    At the buffer zone, along Lake Kinneret, a park will be set up for joint use by Israelis and Syrians. The park will cover a significant portion of the Golan Heights. Israelis will be free to access the park and their presence will not be dependent on Syrian approval.

    Israel will retain control over the use of the waters of the Jordan River and Lake Kinneret.

    The border area will be demilitarized along a 1:4 ratio (in terms of territory) in Israel's favor.

    According to the terms, Syria will also agree to end its support for Hezbollah and Hamas and will distance itself from Iran.

    The document is described as a "non-paper," a document of understandings that is not signed and lacks legal standing - its nature is political. It was prepared in August 2005 and has been updated during a number of meetings in Europe.

    The meetings were carried out with the knowledge of senior officials in the government of former prime minister Ariel Sharon. The last meeting took place during last summer's war in Lebanon.

    Government officials received updates on the meetings via the European mediator and also through Dr. Alon Liel, a former director general at the Foreign Ministry, who took part in all the meetings.

    The European mediator and the Syrian representative in the discussions held eight separate meetings with senior Syrian officials, including Vice President Farouk Shara, Foreign Minister Walid Muallem, and a Syrian intelligence officer with the rank of "general."

    The contacts ended after the Syrians demanded an end to meetings on an unofficial level and called for a secret meeting at the level of deputy minister, on the Syrian side, with an Israeli official at the rank of a ministry's director general, including the participation of a senior American official. Israel did not agree to this Syrian request.

    The Syrian representative in the talks, Ibrahim (Abe) Suleiman, an American citizen, had visited Jerusalem and delivered a message to senior officials at the Foreign Ministry regarding the Syrian wish for an agreement with Israel. The Syrians also asked for help in improving their relations with the United States, and particularly in lifting the American embargo on Syria.

    For his part, the European mediator stressed that the Syrian leadership is concerned that the loss of petroleum revenues will lead to an economic crash in the country and could consequently undermine the stability of the Assad regime.

    According to Geoffrey Aronson, an American from the Washington-based Foundation for Middle East Peace, who was involved in the talks, an agreement under American auspices would call for Syria to ensure that Hezbollah would limit itself to being solely a political party.

    He also told Haaretz that Khaled Meshal, Hamas' political bureau chief, based in Damascus, would have to leave the Syrian capital.

    Syria would also exercise its influence for a solution to the conflict in Iraq, through an agreement between Shi'a leader Muqtada Sadr and the Sunni leadership, and in addition, it would contribute to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the refugee problem.

    Aronson said the idea of a park on the Golan Heights allows for the Syrian demand that Israel pull back to the June 4 border, on the one hand, while on the other hand, the park eliminates Israeli concerns that Syrians will have access to the water sources of Lake Kinneret.

    "This was a serious and honest effort to find creative solutions to practical problems that prevented an agreement from being reached during Barak's [tenure as prime minister] and to create an atmosphere of building confidence between the two sides," he said.

    It also emerged that one of the Syrian messages to Israel had to do with the ties between Damascus and Tehran. In the message, the Alawi regime - the Assad family being members of the Alawi minority - asserts that it considers itself to be an integral part of the Sunni world and that it objects to the Shi'a theocratic regime, and is particularly opposed to Iran's policy in Iraq. A senior Syrian official stressed that a peace agreement with Israel will enable Syria to distance itself from Iran.

    Liel refused to divulge details about the meetings but confirmed that they had taken place. He added that meetings on an unofficial level have been a fairly common phenomenon during the past decade.

    "We insisted on making the existence of meetings known to the relevant parties," Liel said. "Nonetheless, there was no official Israeli connection to the content of the talks and to the ideas that were raised during the meetings."

    Prior to these meetings, Liel was involved in an effort to further secret talks between Syria and Israel with the aid of Turkish mediation - following a request for assistance President Assad had made to Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

    That attempt failed following Israel's refusal to hold talks on an official level - and a Syrian refusal to restrict the talks to an "academic level," similar to the framework of the talks that had preceded the Oslo accords.

    There was no initial formal response from the Prime Minister's Office after the story broke early on Tuesday. But the Israel Radio quoted unnamed senior Israeli officials as stating that Israel is not holding contacts with Syria.
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  2. #2
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    If I had a euro for every time I've heard "No surrender" from the mouth of someone who was at the same time having tea and cakes with his hated foe, I'd...
    You could retire a very wealthy Irishman. Going to sleep every night on top of a large pile of money with many beautiful ladies.
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    If I had a euro for every time I've heard "No surrender" from the mouth of someone who was at the same time having tea and cakes with his hated foe, I'd...

    Anyway, good news, methinks - and some very interesting solutions. Here's a fun game - speculate on the European country that facilitated all this - somewhere warm this time?
    Well, if you got a £ you'd be even richer. I suspect that either France or Turkey had something to do with it.
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  4. #4
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Yesterday news broke that Israel and Syria have had unofficial contacts to discuss the future of their relationship - not least in relation to the Golan Heights and Hamas.

    It got derailed by the Lebanon fiasco, but may well be on track again soon.

    Of course Prime Minister Olmert has denied it (or at least any official sanction, but official deniability is crucial to these kind of negotiations) but the Foreign Ministry has accepted that it knew. Today it appears the US was kept in the loop.

    Why everyone feels such shame in making sensible steps towards peace with their enemies, I'll never know, but it shows that there is hope for the region. Until I suppose, the ultra-nationalists on both sides go flip.

    If I had a euro for every time I've heard "No surrender" from the mouth of someone who was at the same time having tea and cakes with his hated foe, I'd...
    There was a report a while back that the CIA had worked out a deal with their Syrian counterparts, whereby they get full access to Syrian intelligence in return for US non-interference in Syrian-Israeli affairs. The CIA thought this was a ruddy good deal, as it meant they were getting something substantial, and didn't have to pay a dime. When he heard of it, Bush quickly put a stop to the deal, presumably because he felt non-interference would mean a betrayal of his Israeli friends.

    As it turns out, Syria would come to an accommodation with Israel anyway, and the Americans have lost a chance to get something for nothing. The neocons really do have a knack of paying the highest possible price for the least possible benefit.

  5. #5
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    First, Pannonian, any actual published reports, or is this a story you heard at a cocktail party? I'm no fan of the present administration, but baseless accusations shouldn't be entertained until there's some facts to back them up.

    BG, good post. I think everyone is looking at the wrong player. Israel is always only too happy to talk to its neighbors. Hell, there were still open hostilities in the Sinai in the late 70s when Begin and Sadat hammered it all out. It's always a question of when the neighbors want to talk to Israel. So why would Syria all of a sudden want to become peaceable with Israel?

    My guess, they know better than anyone what Iran's plans for the future are. As Assad and his Baathist regime are Sunni, they must be getting nervous about Iran getting the bomb. That they are so desparate that they would enter talks with Israel indicates to me they know something about the current state of Iran's nuclear capabilities we don't.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Nope.

    Olmert: No government officials involved in secret Syria talks

    By Haaretz Staff

    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Tuesday that no government officials were involved in secret contacts with Syria, responding to a Haaretz report that understandings on a peace agreement between Jerusalem and Damascus were formulated in a series of secret meetings in Europe between September 2004 and July 2006.


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  7. #7

    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    First, Pannonian, any actual published reports, or is this a story you heard at a cocktail party? I'm no fan of the present administration, but baseless accusations shouldn't be entertained until there's some facts to back them up.
    Well Don , these reports are old news and the change in status of Syria from bloody handy ally in the WOT to evil terrorist nation were discussed several times here on this forum , particularly concerning rendition .

    Anyhow to the topic , good news , but will it go all the way .
    What is it now , 3 or 4 resolutions calling for settlement of the issue , plus the last one on Lebanon also called for it .
    The stumbling block has always come down to water , which essentialy is what the war was fought for in the first place .

    Edit to add
    Nope.

    Olmert: No government officials involved in secret Syria talks
    Vlad , in case you didn't get the reference from Banquos post , that is normal .
    Right up until the proposed deal is formally publicly issued by governments they will deny unequivocally that they are , have been or would ever talk to those people .
    And after the pressure on Olmert domesticly and the threat his party is under there is no way they would say anything different , just as they recently continually denied that they were in negotiation with either Hamas or hezballah over prisoner exchanges until they thought they had something they could sell to the public .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 01-17-2007 at 20:32.

  8. #8
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Hagen
    First, Pannonian, any actual published reports, or is this a story you heard at a cocktail party? I'm no fan of the present administration, but baseless accusations shouldn't be entertained until there's some facts to back them up.
    Hersh in the New Yorker, who AFAIK has a reputation for being "lax" on the details, but who has a pretty good record for bringing stories to light so they can be further investigated.

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    Member Member Beren Son Of Barahi's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    could this be somehow linked to the now disparate administration in the US trying to get things moving in the middle-east before the elections?

    also their are a lot of non-government players in Israel that are trying to solove problems with out the government at all. just a thought. but the above poster is right, the sticking point will be and always has been water and access to it, and more so control of it.
    The true test of a man is not at his great moment, but at his weakest point. -me

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Never believe anything until it has been ofiicially denied.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  11. #11
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: See, it is possible - Israel and Syria have been talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi
    could this be somehow linked to the now disparate administration in the US trying to get things moving in the middle-east before the elections?

    also their are a lot of non-government players in Israel that are trying to solove problems with out the government at all. just a thought. but the above poster is right, the sticking point will be and always has been water and access to it, and more so control of it.
    Sorry, we already had our elections. The '08 ones are a ways off.

    Part of the preconditions for peace with Syria has been a return of the Heights. They're just so valuable that Israel isn't willing to let them go, that and the amazing heroic efforts of the Israeli defenders. Syria will do whatever Iran tells them to do in less it looks like (central) Iraq will pull itself out of chaos.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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