Complete Pike/Sheild/2-Hander Fix

[napoleon526]

This might be a dumb question, but does the 1.01 version also have all the changes in the 1.00 fix, or should I install both?

[Moah]

Ermm...

Except now Foz has changed his shield fix to 1.1...

(adding half shield to armour and zeroiing stat - upon the advice of a developer no less. This way the units becoem slightly better against rear attacks than they should be, but slightly worse from the front - averaging out. At least I think that's the gist of teh 12 page argument )

....doesn't that mean that you need to change your all in one fix to add the 2H and pike fixes to his new shield stats?

Because obviously you have nothing better to do than run around modding for us forumites who can't...

But it is very appreciated

[akodo]

Is this fix compatible with other mods, such as Lands to Conquer? cause I want a pike fix but i'm not sure if it would cause problems...

[Carl]

It's probably not conmpatiable i'm afraid.

1.01 includes all 1.00 changes as well.

I'm probably not going to copy Foz exactly. But rather use CA's uggested method of zero sheild and half into armour, half into defence skilll. Experiments have shown that lowering defence by even a couple of points can drasticly reduce the ability of spearmen to recive cav charges. So i'm not fond of changing it as the vanillia sheild fix is only baerly enough to make most spearmen useful IMHO.

It may be a while before I can update as i'm having comp problems so a complete OS re-install is in order i'm afraid.

[Foz]

Make that Shield Fix 1.2 now... and yes consensus seems to be that the extra defense is needed, but should be in the form of the other half of the shield going into defense skill. I have made it that in 1.2. So you can yet again "borrow" my work if you like, Carl

And for the record, at the point where I made Shield Fix 1.1, the suggestion had been to put half into armor, then see if putting more into skill was required. It seems to have taken us about 3/4 of a day to figure out that it in fact is required. The primary difference from the very first proposed fix, then, is that flanking (especially rear) will retain more of its effect, and archers (HA included) remain competitive/useful.

[akodo]

So... eh, i've been looking for just a pike fix and I can't seem to find one... could you pretty please direct me to one? I would be forever grateful...

[Lord_hazard]

Nicely done to be sure, but ill rather wait for the devs to fix the problem.
But still

[Foz]

So... eh, i've been looking for just a pike fix and I can't seem to find one... could you pretty please direct me to one? I would be forever grateful...

It's one you can do yourself. Copy the following line:

stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1

Paste it over the unit's stat_sec line for all the units in the export_descr_unit.txt file that have long_pike as a stat_pri_attr, as those are the pike units. AFAIK we've all been doing this by hand by doing a search for long_pike in the file, then pasting in the line. I suppose it could be automated, but since there only are like 20 pike units, no one has done so yet that I know of.

[Jambo]

It's one you can do yourself. Copy the following line:

stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1

Paste it over the unit's stat_sec line for all the units in the export_descr_unit.txt file that have long_pike as a stat_pri_attr, as those are the pike units. AFAIK we've all been doing this by hand by doing a search for long_pike in the file, then pasting in the line. I suppose it could be automated, but since there only are like 20 pike units, no one has done so yet that I know of.

Actually there are a couple of units with long_pike that aren't pike units. Those being the voulgiers-type units and swiss guard.

As far as I can see all pike units have "pike" under "attributes" after "can_withdraw"

[Carl]

Thanks for the permishon Foz.

It may be a few days or I may get it done tonight. depends how backing up goes.

[Carl]

V1.02 up. Include Foz's new Sheild Fix. Follow the link at the top of the page as allways.

[Armoured Hoplite]

Awesome work to all involved, thanks. I just put the export_desc_unit file in my m2tw_lite mod (backed up the m2tw_lite export_desc_unit file just in case) along with the ultimate AI mod, so I am using all 3 and it is pretty sweet.

One thing though, after a bunch of custom battle testing I would agree/argue that Halberd units are now too weak. They are decent vs. bogged down cavalry but are horrible against the charge and get spanked pretty hard by most infantry. Basically most units got a significant boost whether it be 2-handed axe/poleaxe units, units with shields, 2-handed swords, and pikes. That makes up most of the units. Halberdiers were not improved however, and I don't think anyone felt they were really overpowered before. Just my opinion though, and others are free to disagree.

Thanks again to all of the modders for their incredible work.

[Carl]

Thanks for the feedback, my comp problems have been stopping most of my testing, but I suspected this might be the case TBH.

I had the comp crash last night and had to do the Windows re-install, (which it was in need of due to bugs), then so it's going to be at least 24 hours before i'm even done with updates and stuff., as I effectivlly have a clean PC with no M2TW installed.

It actually crashed 10 mmins after I put the 1.02 file up so you where lucky to get it.

[Jambo]

Awesome work to all involved, thanks. I just put the export_desc_unit file in my m2tw_lite mod (backed up the m2tw_lite export_desc_unit file just in case) along with the ultimate AI mod, so I am using all 3 and it is pretty sweet.

One thing though, after a bunch of custom battle testing I would agree/argue that Halberd units are now too weak. They are decent vs. bogged down cavalry but are horrible against the charge and get spanked pretty hard by most infantry. Basically most units got a significant boost whether it be 2-handed axe/poleaxe units, units with shields, 2-handed swords, and pikes. That makes up most of the units. Halberdiers were not improved however, and I don't think anyone felt they were really overpowered before. Just my opinion though, and others are free to disagree.

Thanks again to all of the modders for their incredible work.

This is what I've been thinking. If they were ok to begin with then surely all the improvements to pikes, 2H axe and 2H swords, and shield units, then halberd's would then be too weak...

[Armoured Hoplite]

Very lucky to get it .

One more thing after more testing, as much as I like pikemen (see my forum name), I think they are overpowered by quite a bit after fix. Highland pikemen devastate even Janissary heavy infantry with fix, this just seems wrong. From what I have seen they are pretty unbeatable, but at least they remain somewhat vulnerable to archers. I'm not sure how effective flanking is, will have to test more, but it would be pretty difficult to flank a line of pikemen. The alternate sword attack is obviously much more realistic because pikes could be broken or passed through somewhat, but obviously the old method was not working well at all as they would draw swords too early. To be honest it was a beautiful sight seeing pikemen skewer their opponents, but after several tests, I felt more than a little guilty. Ahhh, reminds me of the days of RTW and my beloved Greek Cities, row after row of armoured hoplites.

Thanks again, many of us in the community can't express our appreciate enough for all of the work you do. Good luck getting the cpu stuff sorted out.

[Armoured Hoplite]

Can't seem to edit so...

What I maent to say is that flanking with cavalry may be a possibility, and may be effective, will have to try. But flanking with infantry is a bit more unrealistic in terms of possibility, and pikemen shouldn't have this much control on enemies tactics. It just seems to me they are way too effective head on now, and I encourage others to test and provide feedback as this is getting close to be very very acceptable in terms of balance.

[Armoured Hoplite]

One more thing, just to throw some results out there from 1vs. 1 tests on grassy plain, medium difficulty:

Highland pikemen had guard mode off and formation widened by two presses of + key:

On average they would beat Janissary heavy infantry with 54+ units remaining.

On average they would beat dismounted English knights with 52+ units remaining.

On average they would beat dismounted feudal knights with 50+ units remaining.

Also, I was pretty generous on averages, sometimes it was much high (55-60+ units remaining. Keep in mind this is a unit with no shield, no armor, and a defense skill of 3 (total of 3 defense).

I tried testing with Aventuros and obviously it was even worse.

One last thing, please don't take my comments as being ungrateful/critical, I'm just trying to help provide useful feedback.

Thanks again.

[Carl]

@Jambo: Yeah, Like I ssaid I suspected this might happen TBH with Halberds.

Regarding Pikes:

Pikes are VERY strong from the front now, but remain weak from the flanks.

The first thing to realise is that you need REALLY high defence frontally to get through pikes head on. So no genuine 2-hander in the game actually has much of a chance of stopping them head on. Sword and Sheild infantry with a defence of 20 oir more will do FAR better.

The Second Point is that even Sword and Sheild Infantry will suffer heavy losses head on against unarmoured Pikemen, and will get beat after inflicting heavy losses on the Pikes if the Pikes are armoured Pikes, (thats Noble Pikemen, Heavy Pike Militia and Aventuros ). Armoured Pikes are natrually much more resistant to the typical counters than most in fact.

Third, Pikes are very vulnrable to missile and flank attacks. Especially for unarmoured Pikes. Even simple peseants or Spear militia could do a lot of damage under these circumstances. However Pikes are nearly untouchable from the front and few units can easilly beat them that arn't other pikemen.

Fourth, Pikes and 2-Handers are roughly similar in that they are both late era heavy infantry who are desgined to take on and beat all prior infantry units. Pikes sacrafice flank and rear resistance and a lot of defence over 2-handers to get exceptional cav charge resistance and frontal killing power. 2-Handers tend to have better armour but are more vulnrable to cav charges. They also lack some of the raw frontal attack power. But make up for this defecit by being much more resistant to infantry flanking actions and much more able to manouvre than pikes.

Five, Having Pikes in your army will tottally dictate your tactics to you as everything has to be based around protecting them from flank and rear attack. In efect the rest of your army is their to support the Pikes. his limits your options heavilly.


The Point of all that stuff above: Yes pikes are a touch OTT and like english bills they need a serious re-costing IMHO. However, they are also meant to be nearly impirvuious to frontal attack and 2-Handers are one of the worst units to use against them in a head on fight. They are also very eas for an amy with no Pikes of their own to avoid as they are not tied down protecting their own pikes and have greater freedom of movment. (A bit like Roman Legions vs. Hoplites really).

p.s. Don't worry, i'm taking them seriously. I just wanted to point out that attacking pikes head on is a prett bad idea TBH. It's a bit like doing the same to Hoplites, which is effectivlly what they are.

[Carl]

TBH I need to do more testing and work on this matter before I make any final decisions on things.

[Armoured Hoplite]

Looks like you posted seconds after I did. I tried using more heavily armoured sword and shield units, but as you can see it didn't make too much difference, and this was against a pike unit with no armor at all. I'll try the flanking stuff tomorrow, as it is early morning here so I guess I should get some sleep . Again, sorry if I sounf ungrateful in any way.

[Carl]

No, you don't sound ungratful.

TBH you need Chivalric Knights/Dismounted Christian Guard/Dismounted Norman Knights/Noble Swordsmen. i.e. the really tough stuff at the very top of the sword and sheild set.

I'd try the flanking with a unit of Dismounted English Knights and a Unit of Spear Militia. Let the spears attack head on and run your swords round the rear. it'll be a blood bath based on my expiriance.

[Armoured Hoplite]

Couldn't help myself from trying flanking real quick, what I forgot is that the AI is hopeless with pikes, they just walk into you and never really seem to attack. Oh well, I will mess around more tomorrow. One more thing, I just wanted to be clear and state that I am not asking for any changes to the mod, just offering feedback to discuss. It's a shame we even have to attempt to work (or have others work ) around this issue, but oh well.

[Carl]

It's a shame we even have to attempt to work (or have others work ) around this issue, but oh well.

LOL, and true.

Couldn't help myself from trying flanking real quick, what I forgot is that the AI is hopeless with pikes, they just walk into you and never really seem to attack. Oh well, I will mess around more tomorrow. One more thing, I just wanted to be clear and state that I am not asking for any changes to the mod, just offering feedback to discuss.

Don't worry, the feedbacks appreciated, but i'm trying to keep subjectiive rebalancing to a minimum ATM and that means i'm loathe to mess with pikes prices/stats, (i may have to though, depends). If it starts getting into subjective balance changes on a large scale we no longer really have a bugfixer do we but a balance mod.

[Bijo]

Though I've decided to stop playing M2TW for a while, this fix looks damn good. Thou hast done a great service to the TW community, as all of ye has who contributed thereto :)

When I decide to play again, and the problems aren't yet fixed by patches, I'll make sure to include the proper mods/fixes, including this one

[Carl]

Thnx for the compliments. Glad people think it's good.

Anyone think it's bad then LOL?

[dopp]

Pikemen remain horribly vulnerable to rear charges. Nothing like a dose of demi-lancer in the rear to spoil your day.

I actually modded my pikemen to have 3 armor base instead of 0 armor because it helps the armor upgrades scale better. Same for all unarmored troops that can potentially be upgraded (including peasants, who can wear heavy mail).

[Musashi]

One thing: While Pikemen seem unbeatable from the front, and people are claiming halberdiers need help, note that halberdiers will absolutely MASSACRE an equivalent unit of pikemen from the front (That is, Halberd Militia vs. Pike Militia, or Swiss Guard vs Noble Pikemen or Aventuros). It doesn't matter whether you control the Halberds of the Pikemen, the Halberds win it, and quite handily. And this is with the pike fix in place.

So I don't know if the halberds really need a buffing.

[Carl]

Intresting data Musashi...

I'm going to try that out once I get M2TW re-installed and working to see what happens. (I don't disbelive you, i just want to see it for myself).

[Rollon]

Why the Varangians animation is considered borked? I ran some tests with the latest shield fix and they have beaten DEK and DGK, but were pretty much butchered by JHI, which seems ok to me. They should cost more judging by their performance.

[Carl]

@Rollen: That requires some checking then, as with the base animation and no sheild fix they don't attack. I assumed it would be the same with the sheild fix and "fixed" their animation.