Spartans

**CrownOfSwords** · 01-08-2007, 23:20

Ive played several campaigns now and feel that I have the game pretty felt out, so today I looked through all the factions in the custom battle screen and noticed the Greeks have the Spartans which they did not in the previous versions so I started a Greek campaign. Well the year is 250 BC I have about a full stack of Spartans seperated into various cities. I want to play a defensive campaign for once and try to just conquer Greek territory and hold it the entire game or to the best of my ability, I also disabled fog of war so I could see what the AI does.
But to the point of this thread, I am not sure which Spartans you are trying to represent Sparta was not at nearly its former glory at this point in time, yet the description of the Spartan hoplites sound as a description of the unit from a far previous time, so this is my problem if you are trying to give a weakened version of the unit then I have no problem with what they are now, but if you are representing the unit as they used to be they are not powerful enough. I believe this could be easily solved by giving them their 2 hitpoints back which in my opinion is a good representation of a Spartan warrior: able to continue fighting despite being greviously wounded. I have found this unit too often taking severe casaulties from a unit they should not have I lost nearly 40 of the 120 to a 1v1 fight against peltastoi. Maybe they should also have the "Frighten nearby infantry" trait. What is everyone else's opinion on this subject?

**Caratacos** · 01-08-2007, 23:39

I agree with the frighten nearby infantry trait. Just the spartan name would make brave soldiers weary and weary soldiers wimper (imho).

**Watchman** · 01-08-2007, 23:47

They'd gotten stomped flat head on several times already during the pre-Hellenic period. Circumstances (eg. some pretty nasty casualties among the homoioi) forced them to kind of lower the standards if they wanted to put armies of any decent size to field and by the by carry out some much-needed social reforms.

By the EB timeframe they might still have had a bit of a reputation and an impressive espirit de corps, but their heydays were long past. Having to fight something more than the part-time sunday-soldier hoplites of the old days probably also had an effect.

If I've understood correctly their real role in EB is that of elite "classical" hoplites (ie. shock infantry) who pretty much have to be killed to the last as their stellar morale score keeps them fighting on in some pretty ghastly circumstances.

**Cataphract_Of_The_City** · 01-09-2007, 00:07

But should you implement a type I goverment (spartan agoge) those Spartans would (or rather should) be as good as their ancestors.

**fallen851** · 01-09-2007, 00:14

The aura of the Spartans pretty much ended when Thebes laid the smackdown on them.

At least if I remember correctly.

**Watchman** · 01-09-2007, 00:24

Thebans among others. There was apparently one instance when a Thessalian cavalry force bloodily routed an entire Spartan expeditionary force back to their ships with zero casualties (claimed, anyway) - presumably a surprise assault.

Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City

But should you implement a type I goverment (spartan agoge) those Spartans would (or rather should) be as good as their ancestors.

I think you should read the relevant description in a bit greater depth. Anyway, back in the olden days the Spartans' chief advantage was always psychological - they were long the only true standing, professional army in the land of sunday soldier militias. Obviously that gave them a major edge in confidence in a straight clash (indeed the opposing phalanx often broke and ran even before contact, although this was by no means all that unusual in hoplite clashes), and a string of victories naturally grew them a fearsome reputation which only added to the intimidation effect.

But that was then. Several bloody routs sort of take the luster off such reputations.

**CrownOfSwords** · 01-09-2007, 00:39

Yeah but the question is what type of Spartan hoplite are we controlling? I believe they should have the frighten nearby infantry trait no matter what due to their legend. Yet as a player presumbably under the right leadership Sparta could rise again as a power, but this is a historically correct mod so the question is leave the alright but not superpower spartans alone or make them into their previous glory? Its just hard to believe men raised from birth to be soldiers are less powerful than men such as the Thorikitai Agrysipdai of the Seleukids who are far stronger than the Spartans.

**Watchman** · 01-09-2007, 00:52

You're missing the point here. That "legend" has for the most part crumbled by the EB timeframe. The Spartans may still be famous and good fighters, but they are no longer (and haven't been for a long time) feared. The precious few infantry types that actually frighten_foot (I can't think of any besides the Gaesatae, Tindanotae and Wodanawulfaz) do that because they are known to have gone to considerable lenghts to appear fearsome, crazy and scary to their enemies - indeed it is apparently one of their main weapons.

As for "raised from birth to be soldiers", bah. That goes for all true warrior classes for what it's worth. The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are conversely crack veterans drawn from the best the Argyraspidai and other elite units have to offer - of course they're badass.

**Kralizec** · 01-09-2007, 00:53

The defeat at the hand of the Thebans was only the coup de grace of the Spartans. The numbers of the real elite, the spartiates had dwindled from about 5000 in the beginning phase of the Peloponnessian war to around 1000 (I recall) due to low fertility and impoverishment.

**swhunter** · 01-09-2007, 04:40

True i agree on the spartan points also.
But this game gives a fighting chance for all factions depending on the skills
of the player.
Are all units historical? Mostly the best you have done.
I have seen some other greek sites that shows from 300- 100 b.c.
that the helmits are different than i see here. Not saying all are wrong
but the type i saw looks like the old spartan or greek helmet.
Would that be a problem to change a few hats ?
For the greeks ?
thanks

**QwertyMIDX** · 01-09-2007, 04:51

That helmet you're talking about is the Cornithian helm which, as far as practical, widespread military use is concerned, was out of use by the end of the 4th century. It was still often depicted in scuplture and sometimes worn in parade armor, but definatly not something that was still used in a battlefield situation.

**-Praetor-** · 01-09-2007, 06:32

Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

That helmet you're talking about is the Cornithian helm which, as far as practical, widespread military use is concerned, was out of use by the end of the 4th century. It was still often depicted in scuplture and sometimes worn in parade armor, but definatly not something that was still used in a battlefield situation.

Not really related to te spartans in any way, but since the Corinthian Helmet topic just sprung up, I`ve had some curiosity with the the Equites Consulares units.

They use a version of the corinthian helmet (I think, if not, please correct me), but they use it not fully on their head, but more like in a "at ease" position... like over the head, but not fully on the head. It always reminds me of the famous busts of Pericles...

In war situation, by using the corinthian helmet in such fashion, they have their face uncovered, they have got better visual and can hear their officer`s commands better.

But I`ve always had doubts whether a person may or may not fight with the helmet in such position. Kinda the equilibrium of that helmet should be precarious, and in a cavalry charge, it always had given me the impression that it would end up flying if the horse suddenly stops, becoming more a weapon in charges than the lance itself.

The thing is, did they used that helmet in that way in combats, or did they used that way in resting moments, and lowered it to their face when in combat?

Thank you!

Cheers!

**abou** · 01-09-2007, 06:46

The helmets that the Equites Consulares and Triarii wear are what is known as the Etrusco-Corinthian or Italo-Corinthian. It is a sort of corruption of the Corinthian helmet itself taken from all the busts and statues (like the one you posted). Essentially, people enjoyed the way it looked when pushed back and so helmets were designed to appear that way with fake eye holes and nose guard. The helmet fit properly and was only cosmetic. Here is an example: http://www.royalathena.com/pages/gre...or/CLG127.html

The Corinthian itself seems to have fallen out of favor simply because it severely impeded the wearer's visibility and hearing.

**CrownOfSwords** · 01-09-2007, 07:15

Well show me something that proves the agrysipidai went through training as ferocious as the agoge, and then maybe ill consider them as badass.

**Geoffrey S** · 01-09-2007, 07:37

You're missing the point. Namely, that Spartans in the prime of their martial prowess were the best because they were a professional force fighting what were essentially part-time troops, either from Greece or from Persia. By the time in which EB takes place they were far from the only professional force, with certainly the surrounding Hellenic kingdoms relying on standing armies, and hence their advantage of being the only professionals on the battlefield no longer existed. This is the reason for their lower stats: they're still an excellent unit, particularly the morale, but there is no reason for them to have better attack or defence than other high-class troops.

**CountArach** · 01-09-2007, 08:23

I was wondering how long it would take for a "Spartans are not accurate" thread to come up...

**Thaatu** · 01-09-2007, 09:57

When you have a Spartan hoplite unit with experience level 7+, that's when you have the true Spartans that would make their ancestors proud.

**MiniMe** · 01-09-2007, 13:24

Originally Posted by Thaatu

When you have a Spartan hoplite unit with experience level 7+, that's when you have the true Spartans that would make their ancestors proud.

And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's when opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

**Thaatu** · 01-09-2007, 14:48

Originally Posted by MiniMe

And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's then opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

Well they were born to die.

**-Praetor-** · 01-09-2007, 16:42

Originally Posted by MiniMe

And when you have a Greek Slinger unit with experiense level 3+, that's then opponent's heroic experiensed spartans join their proud ancestors =)

LOL

**swhunter** · 01-09-2007, 22:40

Kraso and abou i like those ideas!
I do like the hist. comments about this modd makes the game better understood.

I also do like the examples of those hemits. Could that be added in the next
patch? Some of the units helms dont look as cool. Mabe less shinny? ect. ?
Instead of haveing the old bowl on the head for a haircut!

I came from 3 modds
1st XGM small modd ( Expanded Greek Version.)mostly unhistorical.

2nd Barebones ( All Unhistorical !

3rd Lusteds Modd ( which is better but the egyptians are from the mummys return rejects! less unhistorical

4. Now here ! Which i love the factions/ New also! And
the skins! Mapp !! Excellant! Events! And the Monuments and places of interest are very well done!

5. The enemys faction ( i dont know their name ,could be worked on!
I feel i am fighting my own men!

I know they are greek rebles but at least different color of cloths or leather
or whatever could be needed. Some shields i have seen dont have the design from the cards.
is that normal ? also in other factions i see peasents but if you use them
they are a differnt unit on the field.

The skys are cool but there is also a new sky modd with thunderstorms
and differnt skys to blood red ( See Roma Surrectum.

I would love i have a shock troops for them modd and all i thought was the spartans and maybe athans. Could something be done as close to history
and the points brought up?

True the spartans didnt do well later, or were as feared ,and had their time.
Yet this modd gives factions chance to expand to take the world
where in History it never happened!
So is that Historical?
Point is can a few old timers be left? With the old spartans helmits
not saying change everything!
But add a few units ( Which you have greater provided!
thank you i hope this isnt on the wrong page.
And thank you guys for the history.
Makes this exciting!
Also sirs! What is the new update due and what is on it?
Can you help?
thanks again.

**Fondor_Yards** · 01-09-2007, 22:46

IMO they shouldn't get the frighten_foot trait. If we gave every "badass" unit this, then battles would be 10 times shorter and most mid/low level troops would on contact or before. Dosidataskeli, , Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha, Goidilic Ordmhornaght, Carnute Cingetos, Kluddobro, Rycalawre, Soldurii, Arjos, Galatikoi Kleruchoi, and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi would all need the traits according to the badass meter, and these are only celtic and iberian units.

**Kralizec** · 01-09-2007, 22:52

Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards

"badass" unit....Kluddobro

I assume you mean Kluddargos:

and not...

**CrownOfSwords** · 01-09-2007, 23:17

^hahahah

**Orb** · 01-09-2007, 23:31

As for Spartans causing fear... would they cause fear to an enemy who had never heard of their reputation (e.g. Saka or Saba).
I think not, moreso than another elite unit.

The Gaesatae and Wodanowulfoz would be scary to just about anyone not using a bow, on a hilltop or a horse and a good distance away. The Spartans wouldn't.

**Tellos Athenaios** · 01-10-2007, 00:18

Yes, though, a naked men's unit in front of an elite pike unit, with between them a hedge of 6m long pikes... 'scaring the willies out of' the pikemen? Especially regarding the height on which the pikemen prefer to hold their pikes...

That has puzzled me for quite a while...

I'd say the reverse would have made more sense, but then again: sense & reality don't always get on that well...

**Fondor_Yards** · 01-10-2007, 01:46

Originally Posted by Kralizec

I assume you mean Kluddargos:

and not...

Well that second guy does have a pretty big steak knife...but yea I mean the first guy

**Thaatu** · 01-10-2007, 10:08