Ptolemaic Ethiopians

[MeinPanzer]

In the description for the Ethiopian troops of the Ptolemaic army on the site it says:

There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.

I was wondering what "staggering" evidence this is?

[Justiciar]

They made no mention of staggering evidence. They simply said that the presence of Ethiopian or other sub-saharan soldiers in the art of Ptolemaic Egypt is so common that to deny their involvement in Ptolemaic armies would be silly. Makes sense to me.

[Fondor_Yards]

They made no mention of staggering evidence. They simply said that the presence of Ethiopian or other sub-saharan soldiers in the art of Ptolemaic Egypt is so common that to deny their involvement in Ptolemaic armies would be silly. Makes sense to me.

There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.

;).

[MeinPanzer]

;).

There is little textual evidence for their involvement in Ptolemaic armies, though the amount of period art material depicting them fighting with the armies of the Ptolemies is simply staggering.

Yes, and I would like to see this period art, or at least some sources depicting it so I can find it myself.

[QwertyMIDX]

Our Ptolemaic guy has been hard to get a hold of lately, but I'll try and get him to show up. I do remember reading about some relationship between the Kingdom of Meroe and the Ptolemaics, especially under Ptolemy IV though. I think it was in Bevan's the House of Ptolemy, but I'm a bit hazy.

[MeinPanzer]

Our Ptolemaic guy has been hard to get a hold of lately, but I'll try and get him to show up. I do remember reading about some relationship between the Kingdom of Meroe and the Ptolemaics, especially under Ptolemy IV though. I think it was in Bevan's the House of Ptolemy, but I'm a bit hazy.

The only evidence that I know of for the equipment Ptolemaic native troops are a number of terracotta figurines found in Egypt. They look fairly similar to your "Ethiopian" unit, with a few major differences. These figurines carry small double-axes and shields, rather than large double axes, and wear what may be mail but which may also be some sort of padded or quilted jerkin. These figures, however, are generally thought to be Nubians, not Ethiopians.

[QwertyMIDX]

The best I can do is try and get our Ptolemaic guy to post, sorry. I myself was a bit suprised by the big double-edged two-handed axe and I still don't know where they came from. I've been hounding him for other stuff though so this will go on the list I promise.

[VandalCarthage]

These figurines carry small double-axes and shields, rather than large double axes, and wear what may be mail but which may also be some sort of padded or quilted jerkin. These figures, however, are generally thought to be Nubians, not Ethiopians.

I, like Mike, am still not 100% on board with the enormous axe. The only justification I have heard for it was transmission from Thracian mercenaries, which doesn't really satisfy me.

[MeinPanzer]

I, like Mike, am still not 100% on board with the enormous axe. The only justification I have heard for it was transmission from Thracian mercenaries, which doesn't really satisfy me.

That would be strange, since Thracian mercenaries never wielded axes.

[QwertyMIDX]

Bipennis?

[MeinPanzer]

Bipennis?

Do you have any archaeological sources depicting Thracian soldiers carrying axes?

[QwertyMIDX]

The bipennis is all over thracian art...it's probably the singal most common artifact depicted.

I found this thread on the same subject from a while ago btw:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63017

[Sarcasm]

Do you have any archaeological sources depicting Thracian soldiers carrying axes?

Your tone is not appreciated. Go check some tombs in Thrace for some frescos on the walls - Alexandrovo is a pretty easy thing to find.

EDIT: As for the size of the axes, there was some talk about reducing the size of it so it could be shared by other units, namely an Iberian regional.

[QwertyMIDX]

To be fair IIRC that Thracian is naked and killing a boar.

[Sarcasm]

So?

I don't discard spears for greeks, and there's frescos of naked cavalrymen hunting boars too.

[MeinPanzer]

Your tone is not appreciated. Go check some tombs in Thrace for some frescos on the walls - Alexandrovo is a pretty easy thing to find.

One figure in all the Thracian tomb paintings carries an axe- an otherwise unarmed hunter. None of the soldier figures carry axes.

EDIT: As for the size of the axes, there was some talk about reducing the size of it so it could be shared by other units, namely an Iberian regional

That's sensible, but I find it kind of bizarre that the other elements of these figurines was clearly used as a source, but the shields they also carry were not.

[QwertyMIDX]

I'm not saying that the Thracians didn't use bipennis in a miliatry role, I'm just saying a nake guy killing a boar with one isn't proof they did. I'd argue that it's likely they did, considering the high frequency of it's depiction. I mean none of the figures have a falx ethier, and yet we know they used those...

[Sarcasm]

One figure in all the Thracian tomb paintings carries an axe- an otherwise unarmed hunter. None of the soldier figures carry axes.

That's sensible, but I find it kind of bizarre that the other elements of these figurines was clearly used as a source, but the shields they also carry were not.

Ehhrrr...it's a hunting scene, no soldiers in at Alexandrovo. Doesn't mean they didn't use the same weapons in war though, look at the Xyphos for example. There's really one sort of battle scene close to the ceiling.

The double axe is an extremely common symbol in Thracian objects for example, particularly Odrysian ones.

[MeinPanzer]

So?

I don't discard spears for greeks, and there's frescos of naked cavalrymen hunting boars too.

There are plenty of representations of Greek soldiers using spears. There are no representations of Thracian soldiers using axes.

Ehhrrr...it's a hunting scene, no soldiers in at Alexandrovo.

There are two other one-on-one combat scenes from other panels in the Alexandrovo tomb, both showing an infantryman fighting a cavalryman.

Doesn't mean they didn't use the same weapons in war though, look at the Xyphos for example. There's really one sort of battle scene close to the ceiling.

Without any evidence to support it, we have no way of knowing. You could argue that Macedonians wielded axes in combat, too, since some Macedonian hunting scenes show men wielding axes.

The double axe is an extremely common symbol in Thracian objects for example, particularly Odrysian ones.

That's true, but without evidence of axes in a military context, I'd wager that soldiers didn't use them.

I'm not saying that the Thracians didn't use bipennis in a miliatry role, I'm just saying a nake guy killing a boar with one isn't proof they did. I'd argue that it's likely they did, considering the high frequency of it's depiction. I mean none of the figures have a falx ethier, and yet we know they used those...

I disagree that the bipennis was ever used in a military role, but as you say, we have no evidence to prove they did.

The falx (or a weapon very similar to it, perhaps the sica), however, is wielded by some figures from the Kazanluk tombs, as well as a stele of a figure from Asia Minor. Numerous falxes have also been found as parts of funerary panoplies in many graves, showing that they were used in a military context.

[Sarcasm]

There are plenty of representations of Greek soldiers using spears. There are no representations of Thracian soldiers using axes.

There are two other one-on-one combat scenes from other panels in the Alexandrovo tomb, both showing an infantryman fighting a cavalryman.

Without any evidence to support it, we have no way of knowing. You could argue that Macedonians wielded axes in combat, too, since some Macedonian hunting scenes show men wielding axes.

That's true, but without evidence of axes in a military context, I'd wager that soldiers didn't use them.

I disagree that the bipennis was ever used in a military role, but as you say, we have no evidence to prove they did.

The falx (or a weapon very similar to it, perhaps the sica), however, is wielded by some figures from the Kazanluk tombs, as well as a stele of a figure from Asia Minor. Numerous falxes have also been found as parts of funerary panoplies in many graves, showing that they were used in a military context.

I did say there was a sort of battle. I know the damn paintings, it's more of the nature of a duel than anything else.

Yeah there is representation of a Makedonian guy using an axe in a hunting scene, but they don't make it one of their national symbols now do they? And Makedonia *is* close to Thrace, why would it be that big of a leap to have those axes there? The nature of their army just wouldn't exactly promote the use of them.

The bipenne was used in other cultures in a military role, there's no real reason for the Thracians not to have used them. There's more evidence for them being used as weapon, even if it doesn't warrant the creation of a unit, than not.

I'm done with this. You obviously have your opinion set.

[MeinPanzer]

I did say there was a sort of battle. I know the damn paintings, it's more of the nature of a duel than anything else.

You said "no soldiers in at Alexandrovo," and now you're saying that there are soldiers, and you know about them?

Yeah there is representation of a Makedonian guy using an axe in a hunting scene, but they don't make it one of their national symbols now do they? And Makedonia *is* close to Thrace, why would it be that big of a leap to have those axes there? The nature of their army just wouldn't exactly promote the use of them.

Because there is no archaeological evidence to support that speculation, on either the Thracian or Macedonian count.

There's more evidence for them being used as weapon, even if it doesn't warrant the creation of a unit, than not.

[Sarcasm]

You said "no soldiers in at Alexandrovo," and now you're saying that there are soldiers, and you know about them?

Did you even read post number #18? You really need to drop the attitude. Need a quote?

[Justiciar]

Rather than creating a new thread, and for want of somewhere suitable to ask it..

What brought you to adopting the Greyhoundesque image of the Molossus over the Mastiff image? I'm not saying either one's wrong, I'm just curious as to the deciding factor.

[paullus]

We know that some Ethiopians fought for the Ptolemaioi against the southern rebels in the first decades of the 2nd century BC. The soldiers were not Nubians because the Nubians were allies of the rebels. I don't have time to look up the source because I'm off to class, but it may be as simple as Polybios or it may be in one of the Komanos inscriptions. There are also quite a few Trogodutai in papyri in military roles. I could see Ethiopiai or Trogodutai as potential names for the unit, based on that evidence.

There's also the african terracottas, which do not have the consistent armor. Some are nearly naked, some appear to have quilted armor as you said, and others are wearing tunics. Some carry shields and some do not. The axes are generally smaller in these cases, but do you think you could make a very large terracotta axe? A smaller axe was more workable, and these weren't masterpieces, they were simple figurines. So that may be an artist's adaptation.

Also, according to one of our guys, Urnamma, there are a large number of these african soldiers bearing very large axes on one of the Ptolemaic temples on the far upper nile.

If it makes you feel any better, the previous description won a promise to decrease the size of the axe. So its on the list of eventual reworks, it just takes time sometimes to get those sorts of things changed.

[MeinPanzer]

We know that some Ethiopians fought for the Ptolemaioi against the southern rebels in the first decades of the 2nd century BC. The soldiers were not Nubians because the Nubians were allies of the rebels. I don't have time to look up the source because I'm off to class, but it may be as simple as Polybios or it may be in one of the Komanos inscriptions. There are also quite a few Trogodutai in papyri in military roles. I could see Ethiopiai or Trogodutai as potential names for the unit, based on that evidence.

Fair enough. I'd actually see more reason to label them as Trogodytic based on the evidence that that Launey's brought forth, though.

There's also the african terracottas, which do not have the consistent armor.

It should be noted that the only figure which may wear mail or quilted armour is also a cavalryman. Wouldn't the unit be more accurate if the men were unarmoured, and the officer figure were armoured perhaps?

Some are nearly naked, some appear to have quilted armor as you said, and others are wearing tunics.

None are actually naked- all wear trousers and tunics, but some also wear mantles or himatia.

Some carry shields and some do not. The axes are generally smaller in these cases, but do you think you could make a very large terracotta axe? A smaller axe was more workable, and these weren't masterpieces, they were simple figurines. So that may be an artist's adaptation.

If they intended for large terracotta axes, how could they be wielded with a shield? That would be impossible. Some also carry sword and shield, so it is clear that the axes depicted are intended for one-handed use.

Also, according to one of our guys, Urnamma, there are a large number of these african soldiers bearing very large axes on one of the Ptolemaic temples on the far upper nile.

The Praeneste mosaic is not an accurate source at all. Those soldiers also carry amazon shields (as do some other terracotta figurines) and are fighting mythical beasts.

If it makes you feel any better, the previous description won a promise to decrease the size of the axe. So its on the list of eventual reworks, it just takes time sometimes to get those sorts of things changed.

I understand, I just think it would be more accurate to depict troops with small one-handed axes and shields, especially since the shields are pretty neat looking!

[paullus]

Hey MeinPanzer,

I had been thinking that the one with the armor was a cavalryman, but I couldn't recall specifically so I didn't say anything. There's also an officer in the klerouchoi agemata hipparchy whose African. However, because I posted this morning I went and looked up images this afternoon, and the mounted african axeman I found (perhaps there's more than one) looks like he's wearing scale, not quilted armor, though that is a possibility as well.

The shield, as you point out, might be a more solid feature, though one is similar to the Amazonian shield you've maligned, and the other is similar to the kind used by Zulus in the 19th c. Also, of the figures I looked up today, most have smaller axes, as you've mentioned, though still bipennis-types and above average size I'd say. That said, one of those I looked at (he's from a Sekunda book) has a larger-sized axe. Still smaller than the one currently used, but probably a good size for a revised version of the unit.

Another thought on the shields: looking at the discussion going on in our dev forum about the Sab'yn, there's a STRONG chance one or both of these shields will end up on some of the east african regionals.

Re: Praeneste mosaic:
1) That's not what he was referring to. Temple reliefs, not mosaics, and near Aswan, not in a town outside of Rome.
2) Where the heck are the fantastic animals? I hadn't realized there weren't big cats and hippos in africa. You were very unfair to the mosaic, dear sir. The weaponry shown on soldiers is rather accurate (where, may I ask, are the Amazonian shields? I see none. Even if there were any, that doesn't discount the reliability of other details: from the Hellenistic period onward, the Hellenes regularly combined motifs from Archaic tales with contemporary events, including REAL Amazonian shields). I think you owe the Praeneste mosaic an apology!

[MeinPanzer]

Hey MeinPanzer,

I had been thinking that the one with the armor was a cavalryman, but I couldn't recall specifically so I didn't say anything. There's also an officer in the klerouchoi agemata hipparchy whose African. However, because I posted this morning I went and looked up images this afternoon, and the mounted african axeman I found (perhaps there's more than one) looks like he's wearing scale, not quilted armor, though that is a possibility as well.

If you mean Sekunda, The Ptolemaic Army, Fig. 104, his picture is fairly poor and makes the dimples on the "armour" look strange - I have a better quality image that I can post later if you'd like.

The shield, as you point out, might be a more solid feature, though one is similar to the Amazonian shield you've maligned, and the other is similar to the kind used by Zulus in the 19th c.

Ya, the Amazonian shield is definitely fantasy, but those "Zulu" shields are the ones I mean. There are a few different kinds from different figures, including ones with and without bosses.

Also, of the figures I looked up today, most have smaller axes, as you've mentioned, though still bipennis-types and above average size I'd say. That said, one of those I looked at (he's from a Sekunda book) has a larger-sized axe. Still smaller than the one currently used, but probably a good size for a revised version of the unit.

Do you mean Fig. 100 with the Amazon shield? If so, I agree that it's pretty large, but it's still clearly being wielded one-handed.

Another thought on the shields: looking at the discussion going on in our dev forum about the Sab'yn, there's a STRONG chance one or both of these shields will end up on some of the east african regionals.

That would be neat. This is pretty much the only evidence I know of for shields from the "Southern" portions of Africa incorporated in the oikoumene.

Re: Praeneste mosaic:
1) That's not what he was referring to. Temple reliefs, not mosaics, and near Aswan, not in a town outside of Rome.

Oh, I've never seen these before. Do you know of some books with information and images of this?

2) Where the heck are the fantastic animals? I hadn't realized there weren't big cats and hippos in africa.

There aren't just big cats and hippos on there! If you can find a good book with close-up detail shots of the different parts, along with their Greek titles, you will see that there are many fantastical creatures on there.

You were very unfair to the mosaic, dear sir. The weaponry shown on soldiers is rather accurate (where, may I ask, are the Amazonian shields? I see none. Even if there were any, that doesn't discount the reliability of other details: from the Hellenistic period onward, the Hellenes regularly combined motifs from Archaic tales with contemporary events, including REAL Amazonian shields). I think you owe the Praeneste mosaic an apology!

The weaponry was my mistake, they don't carry Amazon shields. However, as for the creatures...

You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?


Ah yes, very realistic ;).

And REAL Amazon shields? Please explain!

[QwertyMIDX]

If anyone wants to look at the, very famous, mosaic in question, here's a link to the full image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Palestrina.jpg

[Puupertti Ruma]

You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?

I am no expert in this, but doesn't krokodilopardalis sound awfully lot like crocodile? The reason why it looks like a giant lizard, could very well be the fact that it is "drawn" by a artist that has never actually seen a crocodile, only heard of it. That would make perfect sense if the mosaic in question is Roman, or more to be more precise non-eqyptian.

:edit: It would be nice to have english litterations of those greek words (as my greek is limited to what I've learned in EB forums and in maths and physics).

[keravnos]

If you mean Sekunda, The Ptolemaic Army, Fig. 104, his picture is fairly poor and makes the dimples on the "armour" look strange - I have a better quality image that I can post later if you'd like.

Please do!

There aren't just big cats and hippos on there! If you can find a good book with close-up detail shots of the different parts, along with their Greek titles, you will see that there are many fantastical creatures on there.

Or it may be that the guy just made an honest mistake. Instead of writing ΛΕΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ (meaning spotted lion in Greek), = cheetah, he wrote ΚΡΟΚΟΔΙΛΟΠΑΡΔΑΛΙΣ, which doesn't make much sense, but looks a lot like the other spotted big cats that are there. Besides, ΛΥΓΞ or lynx a little further up is an entirely real animal or ΛΕΑΙΝΑ meaning the female lion. The artist may take some creative liberties with the animals involved, ESPECIALLY THEIR FACES, but the pics of the people in their daily chores seem real enough.

You mean these guys hanging around a giant dinosaur/dragon entitled "Krokodilopardalis"?


Ah yes, very realistic ;).

See above. And use the big picture Mike has provided...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Palestrina.jpg