Shall the Egyptians ever develop Egypt ?

[Martok]

Now that I understand your post ( ) I know what the problem was. You never directly engage these guys. I take it that you weren't able to separate them sufficiently from their army and that they were fairly rested. VGs are the first infantry unit I engage (after missiles and cav), and I never directly engage them in less it's to tire them out.

Agreed. If all else is equal, I generally prefer to shoot VG to death with crossbow units, Longbows, and/or javelin units (whichever ones I can train). As the Spanish, I love using Jinnettes for this task.

I think Caravel's problem, however is that I don't believe he was able to recruit any x-bows yet at the time of his battle against the Byz, and of course he doesn't have access to Longbows or javelin units (save for mercenaries, which I know he doesn't use). As someone who frequently plays as the Eggies, I sympathize with his plight. Going up against the Byz in the Early period isn't easy for them!

Story time!!!

Leading an Armenian army against them I tried to get my fat, bloated general a positive valor modifier (it was like -6 or something). To do this I charged him at the catapults the Byzies stranded. Well, he is the only one in his unit that dies, even before he reached the target. Basically I had to take a slightly experienced, recently general-less army against a fresh Byzantine one.

The key, as always, is mobility. I was able to bait the VGs and draw them away from their army, spread them out, and exhaust them. You don't touch those guys. You wear them down with missiles (I had mounted x-bows) and repeatedly charged them. Eventually they broke and ran but most of the battle was a feint while I focused on the 2 crazy Norsemen units. Just remember weapon/anti-weapon, don't let them touch anything other than the tip of your lances and missiles and you'll be fine. An army (one stack) without a general won against a larger force. Oh, yes, this was on expert.

Nice battle, Vladimir.

[caravel]

I've been playing this game a long time and never seen valour 6 and 7 VGs fielded by the AI before. I have flanked and destroyed VGs up to valour 3 and 4 but these were the limit. The reason I had engaged them was because I had no crossbows in that battle, only a very small unit of nubian spearmen (javelin throwers in the this mod). I had been shooting at them continuously with fari and mamluk horse archers but had not made much of an impression on them. I had of course been drawing them away which is easy enough with VG. Next I had lured them down a hill and brough my Ghulams up to the crest of the hill to flank them. The horse archers were moved off to harass the Kataphraktoi - and the Saracens that were now as the foot of the hill were there to serve as bait, and to pin. I knew they wouldn't have long at all which is why I had the Ghulams moving in quickly, then down they came on their rear. Any other non spear or pole arm infantry unit would not have survived 3, 40 man/horse units of Early Ghulam Bodyguards hitting them in the flank and rear from a downhill charge...

[Vladimir]

That sounds like a good battle too. It reminds me of desperate defenses against Vikings in VI. Using your heirless king to repeatedly charge elite Viking units until he's almost exhausted and reduced to an army of one gets the blood flowing. I'm sure everyone has been there when playing VI.

I imagine that taking the Egyptians against heavy infantry is tough. Even if they do tech up Egypt they still have a lot of soft units. Their version of heavy axe-wielding troops are no match for VG in less they fight in the desert. I used to love taking the Turks against them before VI as they had loads of peasants that I used to valor-up my THAs.

[caravel]

That's exactly what it was like, on of those pointless VI battles where despite your numbers you know that none of your units can kill off a unit of super valoured Huscarles.

Back to topic: The situation with Egypt is a strange one. I have also noticed that Egypt is never well developed by the AI. Mamluk Cavalry need the Horse Breeder and the High Era, nothing more. So as soon as the Egyptians have built the Horse Breeder which only requires the fort, it should be job done, and they should get on with developing it for trade and farm income, as well as teching up it's civil and military infrastructure. It is not a rebellious province so revolts and sieges wrecking the infrastructure isn't the issue. In some cases it may be invasions that have caused this. Though the Almohads don't often invade Egypt From Cyrenacia. Playing as the Almohads myself I have maintained peace with the Egyptians and never noticed any invasions of Egypt, yet the province doesn't get developed. They do develop their other provinces though, and I think that's the key. It may be that they are wasting money developing the Sinai to produce the Mamluk Horse Archers which require a bowyers guild and horse breeders guild. The latter is not a problem but the former will require a castle. The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! ). Then it will be busy training what it can. From my experience I think that in the case of the Egyptians the AI bankrupts itself very quickly. It is a useless trader and those provinces are the trade hub. Without this vital income they are soon in the red.

[Martok]

The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! ).

80% farmland in Arabia?? That's ridiculous. Unless I'm playing your Pocket Mod, that province isn't worth a heap of camel dung.

A pity the AI wasn't programmed to not build farm upgrades where the province's base income was below a certain amount. I could understand an exception being made for the 20% upgrade - as it's a prequisite for the Horse Farmer - but after that, the AI should really stop building any further farm upgrades in provinces with an income of around 250 florins or less.

[Vladimir]

It makes sense in a way, and I've seen it alot. It's not good for anything else so the AI does it. I usually do it because I do anything I can to make a florin.

[Martok]

I understand where you're coming from, Vladimir, but it still doesn't really make sense to build farm upgrades in low-income provinces like Arabia, Norway, etc. To take Arabia as an example:

Arabia's base income: 44 florins/year
20% farm upgrade: 300 florins
Arabia's income after farm upgrade: 53 florins/year (rounded up from 52.8)

At those numbers, it would take about 34 years before the 20% farm upgrade paid for itself and finally started to make money. Granted, a good governor could cut down that time by 5-10 years; but either way, it would still be a while before your investment started to pay off. (Not to mention which, you'd probably never waste a decent governor on provinces like Arabia anyway.)

And that's just the first upgrade! Subsequent farm upgrades would take far longer to pay for themselves, and would simply not be worth the time and money invested into them. Provinces like Flanders, Jerusalem, etc., are a different story, of course; but in my experience, upgrades of 40% or higher should only be built in provinces where the income is at least 300 florins or better - 400 florins for the 60-80% upgrades.

This is especially true in the beginning of the game when I have limited funds. I can always throw money into farm upgrades for lesser provinces later on once my campaign really gets going (and my treasury isn't so meager), but even then I carefully consider where my cash is best spent.