Why do Seleukid Hetairoi not carry shields?

[Bonny]

What if you shared the carthagian sacred band cavalry model with the seleucid hetairoi?

Not neccessary, you can put a shild to the existing Heteiro model if it may be decided to do so. (model change is not a good thing, The helm for example is part of the model)

They carry shields, and use the kontos as well.

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Note that generic hippeis and other, down-the-pipe cavalry do carry either the aspis or a smaller round shield or a Thraikian thureos. Quite a few stelai don't feature shields though--and in this case I'm thinking of equipment-only stelai, even if they picture other elements of the panoply.

That's true- it seems that in many cases the full panoply was abbreviated for the purposes of conserving space. However, the most common items shown are shields.

So when the stelai show shields they are correct and give us an accurate depiction, but when they don't show shields they are incorrect and don't give an accurate depiction? That seems fair.

[MeinPanzer]

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

The xyston was wielded in one hand.

So when the stelai show shields they are correct and give us an accurate depiction, but when they don't show shields they are incorrect and don't give an accurate depiction? That seems fair.

Here are my thoughts on it:

There are many, many stelai. All of the complete stelai show the same equipment; namely, helmet, cuirass, greaves, and shield. Sometimes, the incomplete panoply is shown, which usually is just a helmet and shield, but also includes any combination of these (sometimes greaves and helmet, shield and greaves, helmet and shield and greaves, etc.). Now, if you judge the body of stelai as a whole- all the stelai from the 2nd C. BC from western Asia Minor- it becomes very apparent that given the consistency in workmanship but given limited space, that it had been decided to limit the panoply to a few pieces. It's apparent that if the artist has shown only, say, greaves and a cuirass, that a cavalryman would obviously not go into battle wearing only greaves and a cuirass; therefore it's apparent that it was not uncommon for the equipment to be abbreviated for the purposes of these stelai.

[Urnamma]

Don't confuse the xyston of the Hellenistic age with that of Alexander. If you don't like the analogy, then look at the Sarissae of the same period.

The xyston lance, or what are called xyston lances, go up in length substantially. Correspondingly, we see a rise in depictions of heavy cavalry using two handed lances. Ergo... The two handed lance offers some advantage over the one handed lance, and they're changing accordingly. Most of the successors were quick to change suit. If we had an Attalid faction ingame, however, they would still use the one handed lance.

I believe Paullus covered most of the points that I would have had here, many better than I could.

[MeinPanzer]

Don't confuse the xyston of the Hellenistic age with that of Alexander. If you don't like the analogy, then look at the Sarissae of the same period.

The xyston lance, or what are called xyston lances, go up in length substantially. Correspondingly, we see a rise in depictions of heavy cavalry using two handed lances. Ergo... The two handed lance offers some advantage over the one handed lance, and they're changing accordingly. Most of the successors were quick to change suit.

Yes, the xysta appear to increase in length during this period, but there's also some evidence that Macedonian haevy cavalry (probably hetairoi) and other heavy cavalry from Asia Minor actually wielded javelins instead. The most notable is a funerary cist, now in the museum of Kilkis, which shows on one side a cavalryman riding to the left with his groom behind. He wears a helmet and carries a large round shiekd. His groom on foot also wears a helmet and may be carrying a thureos. On the opposite side can be seen two Argive shields, and on the other two sides are represented a linothorax and two spears, and a helmet and a kopis.

Also, could you please post just one or two of these two-handed lance sources?

If we had an Attalid faction ingame, however, they would still use the one handed lance.

Sorry, but Pergamene cavalry used lance and shield, too:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.co...moncavalry.jpg
2nd C. BC, from Pergamon.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/mysian.JPG
2nd C. BC, from Mysia.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.co...attlescene.jpg
2nd C. BC bronze plate, from Pergamon. Note that the cavalrymen carry large round shields and thrust with their long lances in their right hands. Note also on the left one of the only representations of phalangites fighting in a phalanx, and with a standard. This is thought to show fighting at Magnesia, where the with the cavalry being both Pergamene or one Roman one Pergamene.

[Grand Lord of Poop~]

so perhaps we should add shields to those cavalrymen should they prove to be accurate?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We do have a cavalry unit with shield for some of these factions, but it's not a compainion cavalry unit. It's done but not in the build yet. I don't see why those charging cavalry are clearly hetairoi (I liked the images though for sure).

[MeinPanzer]

We do have a cavalry unit with shield for some of these factions, but it's not a compainion cavalry unit. It's done but not in the build yet. I don't see why those charging cavalry are clearly hetairoi (I liked the images though for sure).

The thing is that there's no clear evidence for hetairoi, obviously. But what I am trying to show is that after the middle of the 3rd C. BC, the normal equipment for heavy cavalryman was large round shield (either Argive or rimless with a spine), a helmet, a cuirass, and into the 2nd C. BC, greaves. This was the norm, from Sicilian cavalry to Samnite cavalry to Roman cavalry to Athenian cavalry to Macedonian cavalry to Bithynian cavalry to Pergamene cavalry (and probably a few I'm forgetting). It makes sense, then, that the heaviest "non-specialist" (i.e. non-cataphract) cavalry, the hetairoi, would be equipped like this. It's perfectly logical that this group is so well represented in expensive funerary art because they would have been the ones who were able to afford to maintain a horse and buy expensive arms and armour. It also makes a lot of sense that the Seleucid "satellite" states (Pergamon, Bithynia, Mysia before it was absorbed by Pergamon, and the various powerful city states in and around Ionia) would follow in line with the Seleucid military. After all, many of these areas would have provided troops for the Seleucids at one point or another from the 3rd to the 2nd C. BC.

[Fondor_Yards]

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

My bad, thought Kontos refered to all long two handed lancers from this time.

No Greek cavalry do not carry shields, but there is clear evidence for them doing so (most importantly, a handful of armour tokens found with cavalry records in a well in the Athenian agora that show helmets, greaves, shields, and cuirasses on them); none of the Macedonian cavalrymen carry shields, yet there are many funerary reliefs of Macedonian nobles showing cavalrymen carrying large round shields and wearing helmets and cuirasses.

Hippeis, Machimoi Hippeis, Hippakontistai, Hippeis Tarantinoi, Illyrioi Hippeis, and Baktrian Bodyguards, are all greek or under heavy greek influence/control and carry shields. It's not like no one uses cavalry shields.

[QwertyMIDX]

We just did another Macedonian cav unit with a shield, and there's a greek cavalry regional for italy planned (may or may not go in, model space and all) with a shield as well.

[Wandarah]

Mienpanzer continues to make a lot of sense to me. Third thread in a row. Well done man.