great mod but one question

[russia almighty]

How was Lino-thorax armor an effective form of armor ? Has there been some experimental archeology to prove that it could take a beating?

[MeinPanzer]

How was Lino-thorax armor an effective form of armor ? Has there been some experimental archeology to prove that it could take a beating?

From "The Effectiveness of Classical Armour" by John Gerson, from Slingshot 102, July 1982. I've quoted the portions relevant to linothorax effectiveness.

The thicknesses of bronze and steel armour required to just stop some ancient weapons have been calculated and are shown in the Table below. The kinetic energies of the weapons were estimated from several factors, such as their weight and range and the performance of modern athletes in tests .

Arrow - radius of 3 mm, energy of 200 joules for 23.5 mm thick bronze or 14.4 mm thick iron.

Small catapult bolt - Radius of 5 mm, energy of 400 joules for 17.0 mm thick or 10.4 mm thick iron.

Javelin - radius of 10 mm, energy of 200 joules for 2.2 mm thick bronze or 1.3 mm thick iron.

Sling-shot - radius of 8 mm, energy of 100 joules for 1.7 mm thick bronze or 1.0 mm thick iron.

The armour thicknesses obtained above are slightly larger than the actual values that would be obtained from the experiment. From 5% to 40% of the projectile's initial kinetic energy will be lost by air resistance, metal-to-metal friction at impact and be deforming the projectile itself. This last factor, which was important in an age in which the sword blades were made of soft-wrought iron, could be minimized by the use of harder materials for weapons. The Greeks' bronze arrowheads contain much more of the hardening element lead than their armour, whcih implies that Greek arrows were intended to be armour-piercing.

....

A missile penetrates padding or other low density materials [i.e. the linen of the linothorax] by pushing material out of its path. This is a momentum transfer process and experiments have shown that the penetrating power of a projectile is proportional to its momentum, rather than its kinetic energy. Because the momentum of a missile of given kinetic energy decreases with lower mass, padded armour stops light projectiles, such as arrows or slingshots, particularly effectively. Padding also offers good protection against sword cuts. The use of the sword as a primary weapon by Romans and Celts may have encourages the late Etruscans' experiments with quilted armour as a substitute for mail.

But woven textile armour and laminates of cloth and glue display a property known as the limiting velocity, which was described by Jaskowski in 1964. If a textile armour is struck by a projectile travelling faster than the limiting velocity (the speed corresponding to the momentum required to pierce it), the projectile will perforate the armour with virtually no loss of kinetic energy.

....

The largest energy that the linen [in a linothorax] can absorb in an impact is 100 joules.

....

At a guess, a long slashing sword could probably dispose of 150 joules, which is twice the energy required to shatter a man's skull. Felt, which was commonly used to line the inside of helmets, is described by the Shock and Vibration Handbook as being too elastic properly to absorb a blow.

This is the only source I have ever found for such information, though I'm sure many reenactors have put linothoraxes to the test in the past.

[russia almighty]

Interesting . I always assumed that the reason lino-thorax armor caught on was the cost factor . Seems like great anti-missle armor but the wearer is screwed if that javelin thrower is in your face with a longsword .

[MeinPanzer]

Interesting . I always assumed that the reason lino-thorax armor caught on was the cost factor . Seems like great anti-missle armor but the wearer is screwed if that javelin thrower is in your face with a longsword .

I think it largely caught on mainly because of the mobility it afforded the wearer, and mobility became more and more highly valued from the 5th century BC right down through the Hellenistic period.

[QwertyMIDX]

One of our team members likes to hack away at reconstructed armor. Maybe he'll stop by and talk about it.

[mcantu]

Those energy amounts seem rather high. They might be correct at the point of launch but not at the range that they would strike a target.

[Eduorius]

I also think the climate must have something to be taken in count when using an armor. The linothorax is lighter and more ventilated than a metal cuirass. What is the purpose of being so well protected if the heat is going to sophocate you at the end. This brings me to a question.

How can a Cataphract (rider and horse) can fight well after a long period of time? The heat must be like a oven in there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Panzer, your numbers look miss-typed you must have some decimal points in the wrong place.

Even a blunt javalin is more effective than an arrow.

Eduorius: I believe it has to do with a number of things:

Training: As someone who has lugged a modern soldiers fighting kit around on a hot summer day all I can say is eventually you get used to it.

Insulation: After a certain point all that felt and blocks in the incoming heat, at which point all you have to worry about is your own body heat, which will build up.

They didn't: Kats only really need one charge, they probably had their helmets off until they were actually fighting, rather like the old Corinthian Hoplites.

[McHrozni]

Panzer, your numbers look miss-typed you must have some decimal points in the wrong place.

Even a blunt javalin is more effective than an arrow.

Well, since it is said that momentum is important: G = m*v, I'm inclined to agree. A javelin is so much heavier than an arrow that is is at least greatly unlikley to expect it to have any less momentum. Throwing a javelin at 10 m/s is probably quite easy, but loosing an arrow at 100 m/s is another matter - though this is approximately the top speed recorded at modern bows if I remember correctly.

Were kinetic energy important: W = 1/2 * m * v^2, things would be different.

Lastly, I don't really see how an arrow could pierce 14mm of iron. That's a bit more than half an inch, or a bronze plate an inch thick, if you like using imperial system. Imagine an arrow piercing a church bell - does it seem likely?

McHrozni

[MeinPanzer]

Panzer, your numbers look miss-typed you must have some decimal points in the wrong place.

Even a blunt javalin is more effective than an arrow.

Eduorius: I believe it has to do with a number of things:

Training: As someone who has lugged a modern soldiers fighting kit around on a hot summer day all I can say is eventually you get used to it.

Insulation: After a certain point all that felt and blocks in the incoming heat, at which point all you have to worry about is your own body heat, which will build up.

They didn't: Kats only really need one charge, they probably had their helmets off until they were actually fighting, rather like the old Corinthian Hoplites.

No, I checked and those numbers are properly typed. He goes through all the physics for his numbers and cites sources for all his numbers.

[MeinPanzer]

I also think the climate must have something to be taken in count when using an armor. The linothorax is lighter and more ventilated than a metal cuirass. What is the purpose of being so well protected if the heat is going to sophocate you at the end. This brings me to a question.

How can a Cataphract (rider and horse) can fight well after a long period of time? The heat must be like a oven in there.

The Parthian cataphracts at Carrhae may have been wearing furs to alleviate the direct sunlight bearing down on them, though they would probably make the rider just as hot from their insulation of heat...

[L.C.Cinna]

Eduorius:

There's a reason the Roman word Clibanarius means something like "cooking pot guy" ;)

Kathaphracts couldn't operate for too long. They can be compared to superheavy tanks. They were "transported" to the combat area, mounted and put on the heavy armour right before combat,charged when the proper situation arrived. when the ground is not favourable or they are stopped by infantry they are like sitting ducks really. The use of kataphracts was very limited as Ammianus states.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I also think the climate must have something to be taken in count when using an armor. The linothorax is lighter and more ventilated than a metal cuirass. What is the purpose of being so well protected if the heat is going to sophocate you at the end. This brings me to a question.

How can a Cataphract (rider and horse) can fight well after a long period of time? The heat must be like a oven in there.

I will elaborate later on this question, but to clarify something Roman authors thought of the Iranian heavy horse as brave though emphasizing their lack of endurance. The feudal structure of the Iranian society was especially helpful as it would provide squires and servants (Bondsmen) to carry and to care for the noble's armour. Partly, this is why Parthia never was able to follow through with a siege, but instead followed a a season-based calendar, choosing the most suitable timing to mount a swift, hard-hitting attack, and this reflects the Parthian tactics in combat as well.

This is why I still like RTR, they made the cataphracts a true meat-grinder as well as an element of challenge. Charging head-on was usually foolish, and getting bogged down was down-rightly suicidal, their ambling pace and low stamina made it harder to flank, but this paid off, because once the cataphracts charge where the enemy is unprepared, little can stop them