Multiplayer M2TW forums

[Stig]

Why not? In theory the best players win those tournaments (tho most likely they're players out there who are just as good, they just don't join clans and forums and such), so in theory the final should be an epic match ... a match which could learn us all something, why not posting it?

On television you also see Football matches, what you're saying is this:
Let's not show Arsenal-Chelsea, Chelsea lost so that wouldn't be nice to them

[TosaInu]

I understand the point {BHC}KingWarman888.

It can be said that it will force the winner to play even better in the next round: quality of games spiral upwards.

It's a weird though perhaps, but at this moment, nothing prevents showing recorded battles from tourneyplayers. You can record them without the other person knowing it and you can distribute it without him/her knowing. So, it's false to rely on privacy here.

It's frustrating though, when a whole coalition starts to analyse your style(s) and devises countertactics while being in a running tourney. The person no longer fights one person, but a huge team.

So, it won't be a good idea to post replays of running tourneys, unless all involved agree with it.

[ElmarkOFear]

Bottom: I stated I had been away for awhile and didn't know much about those clans I was familiar with during the STW/MTW days. One statement in your previous post, made it sound like someone had to join your clan now before you guys would train them. I thought that odd, given what I know of you guys, and that was why I asked the question. It is good to see you old guys are still out there helping promote the MP community. Unfortunately, your clan seems to be in the minority currently. PS: Is Kuma playing M2TW? I haven't seen his ugly butt around the lobby yet. If not, tell him to stop being so cheap and join us. Tell him I am getting cocky and he needs to humble me! That will get him to play M2TW online! hehe

I want to encourage others to do what you guys do. Next time any of you see someone interested enough in MP to be asking questions about what units/tactics to use, take a little time and explain it to them. Play a couple of games with them, offering advice on how they can improve their game. Do so with no other purpose than to promote the MP community and I think we will see a marked increase in the number of players who join in our community.

One reason a section of the forum need be made for such discussions is it helps highlight MP and would be one-stop shopping for all things concerning bettering your MP play.

I like the idea of calling it a "Learn To Play" MP forum. This gives the section meaning and a purpose. It also helps focus the discussions on "Learning to play" rather than "Bragging rights". Really, all that is necessary now is to find someone to moderate the new section on a trial basis (let's say 3 months), then after that, everyone could evaluate whether it is serving its purpose or not. If not, and few are posting in it, then it could be merged with the regular forum.

Think of it as a FrogBeast Egg "living document" which is constantly being updated as discussions bring up new information. As a matter of fact, I think FrogBeast Egg would be a good person to mod such a new section, given Frog's expertise in teaching others about the TW series of games.

Wonder if Frog would be up to it?

[7Bear7Bottom]

Of course you would get better training if you joined us, that's a give in.

Training people off the cuff is not easy and is why most don't do it.

I also know about 4 player types and those of you have tried to train new players have seen this.

1. New player doesn't listen to you at all and does his own thing regadless of what you say to them. Maybe doesn't speak English. Maybe....:)

2. New player listens to everything you say about unit selection then when game starts, rushes in and dies. Tells everyone on the team you suck and leaves you in a 4 vrs 3 3 vrs 2 etc. hee hee (is this where the skill comes in? Was this what you were talking about?)

3. New player takes all your advice in everything you tell them, then when game starts, says bye, then disconnects on purpose. Bottom is not sure why this happens, Twilight Zone stuff.

4. New player does everything you ask and follows direction.

So there are some people you can help and other that are unhelpable. Setting up forum might help things, why not test it out and see if it flys.

Bottom would be happy to post replays but he doesn't want any Wolves upset.

Kuma plays still you just need to know his names online, pm me for them hee hee.

[Stig]

Well it doesn't especially need to be a "Teach the New" forum. You can also discuss tactics in it. From these tactics the new can then learn something, etc etc. They will then come up with tactics, and you can discuss them, and so on

[YellowMelon]

What is per se, we would make a forum for MP Newbies where there would be a group of teachers designated to help people. What I mean is, you would have a .ORG subclan called Squires or something of that sort. Players of known reputation would donate their time to training these people online and help them. So when people come online and they wear a certain tag, they are easily identifiable to the teachers. The teachers are also responsible for posting lesson guides for these newcomers. Am I making any sense? It is not a clan but a readily identifiable group who are contributing to the knowledge base of the community.

Also I think that a tournament section is a must. Though it would require an active administrator to keep the active tournaments and tournaments resources stickied to keep the forum worth viewing. It would be a good way to help minor tournaments spread the news, and especially a guide for new clans to find out where the competitions are, otherwise its very difficult to stumble into the core grou of tournament goers. If I started off just now I would never find the MP subculture.

[Stig]

Maybe easy "Org-only" tourneys work. I don't join tourneys, I can't be bothered to make time and such for people I don't even know from a forum. And I know enough who think the same, they can't be bothered to sign up for them.
If you make tourney's organized here on .org you might get loads of players who never visit the MP forums, because they don't look into them.

[Jochi Khan]

Another suggestion for a forum name... MP Training Ground

Learning to Play could be as an Announcement, with a description of what the aims of the forum are to start the forum going.
Then some Topic headers to give the members somewhere/something to start posting.
For example...1.-Unit selection...2.-Deployment...3.-Method of Attack/Defend...etc. etc.

Just some ideas to start things rolling.

A link in this post... https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...6&postcount=43

The replays/screenshots issue would be entirely up to the individuals whether or not they want to show them. Surely they would only be used as an instructional tool to help show what is being said/illustrated/taught?

[YellowMelon]

Yes I agree that a tourny for the .ORG would be fun, but imo the most skillful players in the community don't really come here. As I said in my previous post, they are involved in a different circle of the community than the players who play here. Not to say the .ORG people are not skillful, but the typical competitions have been organized by another group of the community who do not necessarily affiliate themself with the .org.

I have been wanting to write a MP user guide for some time, but have lacked the inspiration. I tried to make one with Cow but he bailed on TW. Perhaps if Bazzer would assist me in the project, I think we could come up with some very good and useful information.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Why not? In theory the best players win those tournaments (tho most likely they're players out there who are just as good, they just don't join clans and forums and such), so in theory the final should be an epic match ... a match which could learn us all something, why not posting it?

On television you also see Football matches, what you're saying is this:
Let's not show Arsenal-Chelsea, Chelsea lost so that wouldn't be nice to them

Again,

It's TIme for The King to Tell his Example Stories again



For Example (#8888)


Grey Wolves
RTK
SC
SB
Fearfull Ways
Mizu
Hunters
BHC

are in a 8 clan MTW/VI CWC Tournment.



ok, so I go on.


so SC, and SB and them take out each other, and it comes down to



Mizu
Grey Wolves
BHC
Fearfull Ways

now BHC is facing Fearfull Ways, and Wins Barley. Grey Wolves are Facing Mizu, and lost to Mizu.


So Grey Wolves, Still Angry over their close lost to Mizu, decides to give Me and my (dead) clan BHC, the replays of the game


and BHC goes on to win the CWC tournment

*wakes up from dream*


Ok, So you get my point? In that Case, it won't be fair.


Those Replays should be given t Trusted Members of the clan athat are going to be respsenting the clan in Tournment like CWC or CWB,etc........


Even After The Tournments, it will not be "honorable" so to speak, Because If those clans get similar face-off's again, their "feuds" may be running along, thus replays will be handed out before/during/after, and ruining the whole "make your own tatcis" aspect of Total War.



Bottom, Grey Wolves may Be Dominat, But do not face Magyar Khan when he is eating his Sheep! Or he will Run you over 3 times (like he did with me )




For Training,



Set up a Training section on this fourm with Guides,Pics, and Agreed Replays to show.


and/or,


just have your own Academny so To Speak



Example:


KingWarman88's TW Acedemy

I will help train you in the aspects of flatland,hilly and castle games on MTW and VI, Flatlands and Hilly maps on RTW, and Flatlands on MTW2, in 1v1's, 2v2's and 3v3's.




example




God, I pround of myself when I make a good post


The End





*runs away with Swiss Army back to VI castle!!!!!!!!*

[ElmarkOFear]

Since when did clans stop posting their tournament replays just after the fact? In the past they would post those the next day for all to see. If you are REALLY good, someone seeing a replay of you will not make any difference amongst good players. However, these matches DO make a BIG difference among new players who can learn much about what makes a successful team.

Competition ruins many a good community, especially amongst the clan communities. Non-clan players find themselves unable to find games to join, due to clans being afraid of someone spying on them, and clan members find they are limited to playing with only those they know and trust. Thus, is the beginning of the end once more for the MP community.

If a clan is REALLY good, they will be recognized whether they win tournaments or not. All those clans you mentioned Warman are well respected and acknowledged for their good team play. Is it really that important to keep replays from the rest of the community, due to some paranoia about the opposing teams learning something so fantastic that it will make a difference in the next game? The ability to adapt is one of the things that make a good team great, not some sort of tactic or unit selection which can be easily copied/countered. So passing on replays as they happen, would not make any difference to those teams competing in that tournament.

However, the best way to handle this is to make sure that you ask before posting such screens and replays. The mod of that section of the forum should also remove such replays if anyone in the game or clan asks them to. Would that make it more palatable for those fearing to have certain replays posted?

[Stig]

Warman your post is just wierd to me, why should I be angry if I lost a game. It's a game, not real life. If I lost the World Cup then yes, I might, but still might, be angry. This is just a game, get real and just have fun.

[Rob The Bastard]

Hi guy's,

So, to summarize, most members posting here would like to see additional sub-forums created.


Roughly along the lines of:


Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.

Training Field: for Replays and advice on controlling online battles.

Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum

( The names are subject to change, I had to call them something! )

Does that sound like a reasonable starting point?

[Cheetah]

The best way to learn to play is to play.

SP needs more of this kind of guide forums as for obvious reasons you cannot see how other people play in SP.

In MP, however you can see very easily how others play (and you would be in a big trouble if you dont), thus the easiest way to learn is to play with the best and play a lot.

The main use of replays for me are as follows:
- correct my own mistakes
- get some info about our next tourney opponents
Obviously none of these functions favours a replay forum.

Watching some random guys killing eachother is not much fun, the time IMO is better spent playing. If you really want to know those random guys then play with them and save the replays.

All in all IMO a replays forum:
- needs lot of work
- becomes obsolete with each path
- potential hotbed of bragging, flaming (needs a lot of work to controll it)
- cannot offer much more than the player can do for himself, i.e. play a lot and save the replays.

On the other hand the following things could be done without much debate:

- Set up a dedicated tourney forum. I am sure that the tourney admins will come and update us on each of the major tourneys.

- Set up a faction forum, very much like the SP guide forums. I am willing to write up a short intro with some basic setups about each factions (alternatively if we have enough volunteers we can do faction assigments), but I am sure that as soon as you open the threads lots of people will be posting. (Also if you needs mods for this forum then I am ready to help)

- Write up an MP guide. YM we can split up the work, I am sure I can get some more help.

[Cheetah]

We posted a the same time.

Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.

Strictly for tourneys IMO.

Training Field: for Replays and advice on controlling online battles.

General advice can be offered on the general MP forum, but it could be done. Just there might be a bit of a confusion that which threads belong here and which ones to the general discussion. Replays, see above.

Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum

That is fine.

Does that sound like a reasonable starting point?

+ faction forums

[Stig]

Cheetah, it shouldn't be a replay forum, it should be a tactics forum. You post your strategies and use some replays to support it. You post your latest battle and say what went wrong and why, or you use it to introduce a new strategy

[ElmarkOFear]

Cheetah: I believe the whole point of this section should be the retention of new players to MP. Discussing tactics using replays and screenshots is the best way to accomplish such in a short amount of time. The "learn by playing" method doesn't retain new players who keep getting crushed by veterans and clan teams and quit in frustration. You can learn a lot by looking at replays and screenshots as part of a discussion.

But then again you guys who are in a clan already know this, so why deny new MP players the same info? Its not like it will hurt a veteran, highly-respected, highly-experienced and highly-skilled clan such as RTK. Your teamwork is what wins you matches, not anything which could be found in a replay. I somewhat support your early statement Cheetah: Teamwork comes from many hours of practicing/playing with your teammates until you know when they need help without having to think about it and until you know your teammates will be there to hold the flank without having to ask. This aspect of the game is a "Learn by playing" method, but the tactics we are speaking of are those which can be learned by discussing, watching, reading (of which screenshots and replays could be a great tool).

Rob: Those section breakdowns would be fine in getting the ball rolling. Since it will only be a test section to see if things work out well for discussion purposes. If it turns into a flame war area, then it is easily removed. :)


PS: This would also be a great place to post replays concerning exploits, bugs and other problems with game balance. For example:

1. The JHI attack speed making them win vs. units they probably shouldn't. 2. The "Push-Through" exploit of certain horse units (Hobilars for instance) which allows you to get a continual charge bonus and "push" your way through pikes/spears/other more expensive cav, by continually clicking behind the enemy unit after contact.
3. The overpowering cav charge by light horse units vs. pikes/spears/etc . .
4. How routing units can outrun cav units and also how when attacking these units your entire chasing unit will stop and not continue the chase.
5. How, once routed your units are removed from the Group they were initally assigned to and you must re-attach them to the group after they rally.

......and all the other things people have found which they would like corrected. CA loves proof of such problems and replays/screenshots are the best way to do this.

Now if you like, you could rule that the posting of replays/screenshots must be accompanied by a valid discussion of a certain game bugs, imbalances or battlefield tactic and any replay posted for bragging rights or other non-specific reason would be removed. You could also rule that if anybody asks for a replay or screenshot (which has either them or their clan members included) to be removed then it will be removed immediately. This would allow the clan community to keep certain info. off the public forums.

People have always had the means of posting replays wherever and whenever they want, and such things have never been a problem, so why would anyone think it would become a problem now, just because you can do that here?

[RTKBarrett]

If u need the help mel i might be able to do a few things :P already got a few "basic" guides in my forums atm...
The problem is if we want these new forums *which are gd ideas* its about making sure other members of the multiplaying community come here and show an interest to what is being done.
I myself only joined these forums recently simply because i didnt believe there was any reason to join until medieval was on the doorstep, this may change alot of peoples opinions? What makes it great is that everyone has a different playing style in multiplayer. I was pretty much self taught and because of that i apparently do some "mad" if not stupid things at times lol... If all of these players were to post how they play in games then the "newbs" could pick a style that they felt suited their ideas.

[ElmarkOFear]

A wide variety of play is what we want to show everyone. There is room for many styles of play and highlighting them will increase everyone's enjoyment of this game. My style is to play "professional victim" whilst my teammates capitalize on that fact. :)

[Fenix7]

It's frustrating though, when a whole coalition starts to analyse your style(s) and devises countertactics while being in a running tourney. The person no longer fights one person, but a huge team.

Elmo said it all. I only add few words. In the world of martial arts some issues as described here are present there as well. I'm relying on secret strategies, tactics, secret blows and similar things. Boloney.

There is common persuasion that if you know a secret technique you have advantage against your opponent. However the individuals who are convinced in this are mistaken. They are not improving themselves becaus they are relying on an illusion. Those who share their knowledge with others are constatly improving themselves.

There as well is nothing to worry that someone will copy you. He can do that but will never achive the same effect with your gameplay or army setup. Each has to find his own way.

My style is to play "professional victim" whilst my teammates capitalize on that fact. :)

Playing with 2 or 3 HA units on the flank and harrasing his front missile line. Cheap HA units are there to intercept opponent missiles from his HA units (if you use expensive one use them just befor the melee) so my elite units are not effected by opponent HA units and I don't have to chase them constantly.

Atm in team matches xbow armies are very popular, especially Milan faction becaus it has strong xbow units which have very long range. That means that you as player on the other side of the team, have to come closer to the enemy positions if you don't have long range missile units.

Becaus of the popularity of xbows, I've started using 3 xbows (long range - check which faction have them) with 1 def upgread and 2 long range archer units and few light and some heavy cavalry units and strong infantry (it works in team match if supported with 1 or 2 cavalry units just to neutralize charge from opponent cavalry or even infantry). While those xbows are there toprevent that my infantry units are hit by opponent missiles, those 2 archer units with long range missiles serve very well to drive away the enemy HA units (usually 2 or 3, in few cases even 4) or his skirmish cavalry which is trying to harrase my missile line. If this is even supported with 1 or 2 skirmish cavalry units with 2 HA units of yours, effect is even better.

When seting up such army you have to be careful that you have enough strong units for the end of the battle where melee takes place.

[7Bear7Bottom]

Bottom, Grey Wolves may Be Dominat, But do not face Magyar Khan when he is eating his Sheep! Or he will Run you over 3 times (like he did with me)

Hee hee, that's you.

Anyways, I think we should just give it a go and post the replays etc.

As for tournament replays, maybe wait till the tournament is over, by that time there will be a new patch(we hope) and play will change with that patch.

I'm also sure that there will be a final mod developed for MTW2 because 2nd patch did not fix all the issues.

[Jochi Khan]

Another suggestion for a forum name... MP Training Ground

Learning to Play could be as an Announcement, with a description of what the aims of the forum are to start the forum going.
Then some Topic headers to give the members somewhere/something to start posting.
For example...1.-Unit selection...2.-Deployment...3.-Method of Attack/Defend...etc. etc.

Just some ideas to start things rolling.

A direct link to the Academy, mentioned in my earlier post, to show what could be set up for the Training Ground or Training Field

http://nomadalliance.forumup.com/for...dalliance.html

The Academy has been very well written and presented. Well worth reading.
A good introduction to MP for present players/newcomers to the game.

[Monarch]

- Set up a faction forum, very much like the SP guide forums. I am willing to write up a short intro with some basic setups about each factions (alternatively if we have enough volunteers we can do faction assigments), but I am sure that as soon as you open the threads lots of people will be posting. (Also if you needs mods for this forum then I am ready to help)

Just to give this a bit of a bump, good idea imo.

[Rob The Bastard]

... rehashing ...

Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.

Training Field: Discussion on MP tactics and controlling online armies. Replays allowed for training purposes ( no gloating! :) )
Links to other sites with training content.

a Faction Sub Forum recommendations on unit/army selection and tactics for each faction.


Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum


???

[Stig]

Aye something like that sounds cool, tho you can do all the factions in the Training forum as well

[Jochi Khan]

... rehashing ...

Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.

Training Field: Discussion on MP tactics and controlling online armies. Replays allowed for training purposes ( no gloating! :) )
Links to other sites with training content.

a Faction Sub Forum recommendations on unit/army selection and tactics for each faction.


Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum


???

I think those three headings would amply cover what has been discussed.
A good idea to add the Faction Sub Forum. This would take some of the pressure off the main Training Field forum which could/may get a lot of postings.

[ElmarkOFear]

Agreed those topics are good for me as well.

PS: Bottom, I think you will see that this can work well for everyone. If it doesn't I will let you rout my army off the field of battle on a regular basis . . . oh wait, you do that now . . .nevermind!

PSS: I was hoping though that the Training Field section would have been named:

Elmo's Noobish Super Secret Expert Hints, Tips, and Techniques Extraordinaire Discussion Group

Though that might not all fit on the same page as the rest of the section titles. . . . . Oh well, I can always dream!

[RTKBarrett]

Agreed those topics are good for me as well.

PS: Bottom, I think you will see that this can work well for everyone. If it doesn't I will let you rout my army off the field of battle on a regular basis . . . oh wait, you do that now . . .nevermind!

PSS: I was hoping though that the Training Field section would have been named:

Elmo's Noobish Super Secret Expert Hints, Tips, and Techniques Extraordinaire Discussion Group

Though that might not all fit on the same page as the rest of the section titles. . . . . Oh well, I can always dream!

What about the E.N.S.S.E.H+T+T.E.D.G

[Lavos]

Since when did clans stop posting their tournament replays just after the fact? In the past they would post those the next day for all to see. If you are REALLY good, someone seeing a replay of you will not make any difference amongst good players. However, these matches DO make a BIG difference among new players who can learn much about what makes a successful team.

This is how it should be. In all tourneys replays should be always available for all. Right after battle replays should be posted, there is no need to wait untill tourney ends.
To hell with other clans knowing your tactics, if this is a rule you also know theirs, right? With this in place, clans would be warned of rushers and other surprise things and there would be less backdoor grey stuff in trading replays and undercover spying.
But, I guess this is for some tourney forum not for here.

[Fenix7]

I agree with Lavos here. Besides if I'm not mistaken there are few skilled players playing with fake tags. Not willing to admit defeat against a newbie with a ''true tag''? heh