funny but awsome trait

[fallen851]

If you don't like those short descriptions, don't read them. It can be as simple as that. But you'll miss out learning about Macedonian footwear if you do! "We have constructed a large palace here, one so grand and luxurious that even Demetrios Poliorketes would have approved! He, of course, being our great king who wore the most expensive footwear a Makedonian ever has dared place on his feet, like a half-boot they say it was, covered in felt of the costliest purple, woven behind and in front with a very intricate pattern of gold! This is a palace to match such boots!"

See, that doesn't sound like a joke to me, but ok.

Oh well, this thread is becoming boring. I was simply sharing my opinion, if you don't like it, I don't care.

I already said I was modding out the jokes I don't like, the ones I don't think are funny. I was not trying to force the EB to remove the jokes to please me.

Do I want the EB team to mod out the jokes? It doesn't really matter. But the EB team shouldn't pretend to put in the jokes to keep peoples interest, if they don't care whether or not people play their mod (as had been said in the past), unless the EB team puts in the jokes to interest themselves. Everyone on the EB totally dodged the question about why they put in the humour. That is fine to, I don't care. I think it because they want people to see their work, and be interested in it. But again, just an opinion.

That is all I said. What it leads to, nobody knows! No need to long explanations about feedback and angry posts. There is nothing to see here. Boring thread.

(My ability to drive people crazy on this forum is achieving legendary status! Please, just relax.)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

As far as sidestepping your question (which I did not, but my answer may have been too subtle), the reason why I (at the least) include some humor is indeed to keep it interesting to people playing the mod/game, where they might keep learning more and get more interested in it as a whole. In a classroom I know some students don't need any motivation, but they sit in a room with other people might greatly benefit from a little joviality in the course ("benefit" as it keeps them looking at the material (playing the mod) a little longer or with a little more interest than they might otherwise). You'd really not like me in a class - I usually include a New Yorker cartoon dealing with some aspect of mythology on every myth quiz. And I always have introductory latin classes read a bit of adapted Plautus each semester for fun.

[Lovejoy]

Do people realise they are getting something like this for for free! That pleple are putting in hours and days and weeks of their own time for free. If they want to inject a little levity in this then what is the problem!

If you dont like the context of what is being produced, find something else that better fits your vision of how the product you want to play fits your idea of how things should be in your idealised world and supports your opinion of how things are presented to you.

I put the bold around the you so you would maybe understamd how selfish you are sounding.

Apologies if this sounds angry but FFS......find something useful to do like chew on wasps

Though, you should have the right to be a little critical, even if the EB-team is making it for us for free. We all love EB and we love the guys behind it. That's often why some are critical some times, you want to help EB improve itself. I dont care if IKEA is making ugly chairs, but I do care if a unit card in EB is less than perfect. Because i love EB. :)

And you dont have to love everything about EB just because its free. That would have been pretty stupid. ;)


As for me, I hardly ever noticed does "funny" descriptions. Some are great, some are less. Poo jokes is almost never fun. And tbh not in EB eighter. I like the sarcasm in some of the descriptions.

Anyway, most are fun, (atleast the first time!) some I can live without.

:)

[Kugutsu]

Yeah, the EB team thinks they are pretty funny, but they aren't...

You seem to have a knack of jumping on the bandwaggon of people who are critical of EB, and making inflammatory comments which push it over the edge.

The rest of your first post wasnt even particularly negative, but that first comment is either carefully chosen to really irritate the people who are working of the mod, or you simply have a very unfortunate turn of phrase, and no idea why people are annoyed with you. If the former, then

You're kind of an asshole aren't ya?

is about right. If the latter, then perhaps reading your comments before you hit 'submit reply' will spare you from being a victim of the team's wrath...

[McHrozni]

Do people realise they are getting something like this for for free! That pleple are putting in hours and days and weeks of their own time for free. If they want to inject a little levity in this then what is the problem!

If you dont like the context of what is being produced, find something else that better fits your vision of how the product you want to play fits your idea of how things should be in your idealised world and supports your opinion of how things are presented to you.

I put the bold around the you so you would maybe understamd how selfish you are sounding.

Apologies if this sounds angry but FFS......find something useful to do like chew on wasps

Look up on the term "feedback". Contrary to what you imply, I never said the mod was anything less than outstanding. Outstanding doesn't mean it's perfect, however, and this is one thing that could be improved, and no one seemed to have mentioned it before, and there is this convenient forum here...

As far as sidestepping your question (which I did not, but my answer may have been too subtle), the reason why I (at the least) include some humor is indeed to keep it interesting to people playing the mod/game, where they might keep learning more and get more interested in it as a whole. In a classroom I know some students don't need any motivation, but they sit in a room with other people might greatly benefit from a little joviality in the course ("benefit" as it keeps them looking at the material (playing the mod) a little longer or with a little more interest than they might otherwise). You'd really not like me in a class - I usually include a New Yorker cartoon dealing with some aspect of mythology on every myth quiz. And I always have introductory latin classes read a bit of adapted Plautus each semester for fun.

Some humor is fine. But RTW and EB are entertaining enough without it, and too much humor dillutes that. Would you put knock-knock jokes in Quo Vadis the movie?
I wouldn't, and I'm sure plenty of others wouldn't as well.

McHrozni

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It would be hard to get a bunch of 18-22 year olds to sit down and watch Quo Vadis today I think, and still pay attention well. Jokes certainly made watching "Druids" (aka "Vercingetorix") a lot more bearable though, I can tell you that (we were reading Caesar's account of the traits and customs of the Gauls, and I was looking for a film that pertained in some way to that in order to give some extra credit out if they watched it, not in class time though of course). "Worst...Caesar...Ever."

[blacksnail]

Everyone on the EB totally dodged the question about why they put in the humour.

TA answered you directly as he filled in many of the empty short descriptions. I don't know offhand who did any of the others. I can't say anything authoritatively because I didn't write any of them. I am sorry if this looks like I am dodging a question, but I am simply unable to say anything on this subject.

(My ability to drive people crazy on this forum is achieving legendary status! Please, just relax.)

It is often hard to tell the tone of people's messages from the text alone - there is no body language to clarify the way you mean something. If you find people misinterpreting you consistently you may want to consider careful proofreading before posting. Ages ago I came across as rather blunt and antagonistic online when I certainly didn't mean to do so. Proofreading the posts helped me get across the tone I intended until I was able to do so naturally. Also, judicious use of smilies can help.

[McHrozni]

It would be hard to get a bunch of 18-22 year olds to sit down and watch Quo Vadis today I think, and still pay attention well. Jokes certainly made watching "Druids" (aka "Vercingetorix") a lot more bearable though, I can tell you that (we were reading Caesar's account of the traits and customs of the Gauls, and I was looking for a film that pertained in some way to that in order to give some extra credit out if they watched it, not in class time though of course). "Worst...Caesar...Ever."

Perhaps, perhaps not. Neither RTW nor EB is a history lession, however - in fact both are computer games (or more strictly, two versions of one game). Strip them of all humor, and they're still two very entertaining pieces of software.

Another interesting comparison, would you put a picture of Companion heavy cavalry unit on the cover of book of blond jokes? Heck no!

McHrozni

[blacksnail]

Look up on the term "feedback".

Oh, certainly. Without feedback we won't be able to make EB any better. That's why I tried to clarify the type of feedback that is most useful to us. "I don't like EB because you guys are jerks and also this shield texture is wrong" is generally less effective than "Is this shield texture correct? According to [source], the 3rd century shields employed by [faction/unit] almost universally depicted a large eye on the shield instead of a horse." Personally I thought your feedback was of the useful variety. If there are some consistent stinkers amongst the short descriptions, we'll certainly take a look at them.

[Foot]

Another interesting comparison, would you put a picture of Companion heavy cavalry unit on the cover of book of blond jokes? Heck no!

McHrozni

Awful analogy, I'm afraid. Sometimes you need humour to make history interesting, but it certainly doesn't follow (and in fact makes no sense) to suggest that similar logic would find oneself requiring history to make humour interesting. Humour is interesting on its own.

In addition, we must recall the popularity of the Horrible Histories series, whose witty takes on history are probably partly responsible for many current history undergrads (perhaps).

However, I would agree that simple toilet humour, whilst timeless, is not particularly funny. But such a tarred brush should not be used to dismiss Teleklos' other accomplishments in this department.

Foot

[McHrozni]

Awful analogy, I'm afraid. Sometimes you need humour to make history interesting, but it certainly doesn't follow (and in fact makes no sense) to suggest that similar logic would find oneself requiring history to make humour interesting. Humour is interesting on its own.

Perfect analogy actually
The computer game RTW/EB is entertaining enouhg by itself. It doesn't need extra humor to make it entertaining (and for some at least, it reduces that).

It even makes sense from the Role-Play point of view - you can't really run a state if you joke about one out of every three isuues before you.

However, I would agree that simple toilet humour, whilst timeless, is not particularly funny. But such a tarred brush should not be used to dismiss Teleklos' other accomplishments in this department.

Foot

Please notice this is the only thing in the mod that I object to and that I have stated the work was outstanding That, and some recruiting issues that are probably very well covered already and that I won't touch for now.

McHrozni

[Teleklos Archelaou]

However, I would agree that simple toilet humour, whilst timeless, is not particularly funny. But such a tarred brush should not be used to dismiss Teleklos' other accomplishments in this department.

Foot

Just be glad foot's puns didn't find their way into them.

[Pode]

576(?) distinct buildings * 20 distinct factions which might build them =

<me gives up and uses calculator>

11500+ short descriptions, "many" of which are written by one guy. In his shoes, I would certainly start putting in joke ones just to escape the drudgery of it all. Even if only one in ten is a joke, that's over a thousand jokes to come up with. Not every one is going to be a gem. So far I've enjoyed the ones I've come across.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I haven't done all of them - Werner is helping to get them in the basic "X has been built, my king" format, with a little bit of flavor added, but he hasn't been able to get reliable internet access where he is lately.

[Mithradates VI]

It would be hard to get a bunch of 18-22 year olds to sit down and watch Quo Vadis today I think, and still pay attention well. Jokes certainly made watching "Druids" (aka "Vercingetorix") a lot more bearable though, I can tell you that (we were reading Caesar's account of the traits and customs of the Gauls, and I was looking for a film that pertained in some way to that in order to give some extra credit out if they watched it, not in class time though of course). "Worst...Caesar...Ever."

Oh dear. That movie was just....GAH!


Back to the point though, I agree--most people that age (of which I happen to be) wouldn't be caught dead watching Quo Vadis, or at least, paying attention. Humor does help students learn, or at least, to pay attention, in my experience.

[Kull]

576(?) distinct buildings * 20 distinct factions which might build them =

<me gives up and uses calculator>

11500+ short descriptions, "many" of which are written by one guy. In his shoes, I would certainly start putting in joke ones just to escape the drudgery of it all. Even if only one in ten is a joke, that's over a thousand jokes to come up with. Not every one is going to be a gem. So far I've enjoyed the ones I've come across.

That's a very interesting post, in a number of ways. Not only are there a LOT of short building descriptions (and don't forget units), but there's a huge amount of OTHER things going on as well. So if somebody inserts a bit of humor here and there, even those EB members who might not care for it have basically two choices - write a few thousand humorless ones themselves (you can imagine how many volunteers are just dying to do THAT!), or stay focused on their own tasks and recognize the short descripts for what they are, a minor piece of the Vast Tapestry That Is EB.

A few other things that people would do well to bear in mind:

1) I keep hearing references to the monolitic entity known as the EB Team. Believe me, it's a diverse group who's opinions are occasionally in near-violent conflict. And it's safe to say that many features you see in EB (and take for granted) have caused one team member or another to be almost violently ill at the thought of their inclusion in the Mod. But for the most part we focus on the big picture and getting things done. So are there some members who hate poo jokes? Probably. Is it enough of a problem that they would flee the mod or demand changes? No.

2) We are also not a highly centralized dictatorship, and that means every element that enters into EB does not pass through a rigorous unitary control point. A lot of what we do DOES go through a pretty serious, decentralized peer review process (f/e the nit picking over new units can be almost painful to watch), but it's always different people reviewing different areas of the mod. And when there are major issues, the team as whole will vote for one of several outcomes - and rest assured the results are rarely "blow outs". So we disagree, we delegate, we review each others work with varying degrees of formality.....and it all works. But it will never be mistaken for "efficient", much less "perfect". AND......the results of our efforts will NEVER please everybody.

[Caratacos]

A lot of people seem to forget that people in the past liked to laugh just as much as people do today. So most of the jokes made in the descriptions were probably similar to jokes made in their own day... so when you think about it like that, the attention to historical accuracy is EB quite profound.

PS-- I like jokes

[HFox]

McHrozni

Your comments and that of others come across as unconstructive, hence the rabid response. :)

We all throw our angst around at times, but when you direct clumsy, and to some extent purile critism, at something like this your always going to get a reaction.

I have not seen anything written that I thought was out of place or in bad taste myself, but bearing in mind the scope of the content it may still be out there. Also as the people are doing this as well as a day job, bear in mind that at times they may be sleepgriefed when writing. So if the odd piece of content ends up erring on the side of silliness, I wouldnt be surprised or personally offended. I would just discount it and move on.

The best way to deal with this is to send one of the team members a quiet note and trust them deal with it appropriately in due course, or edit the appropriate text file yourself as others have done.....

...or maybe even help by sending in an alternative

[McHrozni]

McHrozni

Your comments and that of others come across as unconstructive, hence the rabid response. :)

We all throw our angst around at times, but when you direct clumsy, and to some extent purile critism, at something like this your always going to get a reaction.

I have not seen anything written that I thought was out of place or in bad taste myself, but bearing in mind the scope of the content it may still be out there. Also as the people are doing this as well as a day job, bear in mind that at times they may be sleepgriefed when writing. So if the odd piece of content ends up erring on the side of silliness, I wouldnt be surprised or personally offended. I would just discount it and move on.

The best way to deal with this is to send one of the team members a quiet note and trust them deal with it appropriately in due course, or edit the appropriate text file yourself as others have done.....

...or maybe even help by sending in an alternative

Heh, I know what you're trying to say.
The thing is, some people - you probably as well - took this much too seriously. If something is amiss with the mod, that doesn't mean everything is, it never did. Is that so hard to grasp, really?

Still, given the complete lack of information as to which file I should edit and where it is, I did the second best, I submitted an alternative which everybody already had. I'm sorry, but announcement descriptions were better in the original. That means they could be kept, or modified, or completely rewritten in their own style, just keep lines like "Now we can throw poop down on our enemies!" out, please Not everybody around here is in his (hers'/it's) early teens.

If you consider that destructive criticism, you'll probably consider anything less that worshipping the mod as a divine gift as destructive criticism, so futher argument would resemble this:

I'm sorry, but while the modders are doing one heck of a job, it could use improvement in certain areas, and this is one such area. Why do I have to keep repeating this, I don't know, but everybody (except for the authors, heh) gets so rabbidly insane at any such suggestion. Why, I don't know, but I think the reason is the same as for liking such toilet jokes in the game.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did,

McHrozni

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

PS-- I like jokes

Same here

[edyzmedieval]

I'm sorry, but while the modders are doing one heck of a job, it could use improvement in certain areas, and this is one such area. Why do I have to keep repeating this, I don't know, but everybody (except for the authors, heh) gets so rabbidly insane at any such suggestion. Why, I don't know, but I think the reason is the same as for liking such toilet jokes in the game.

Why don't you try writing 10000 descriptions like a robot, without making any jokes?

[Tuuvi]

I like having the jokes in EB, it gives the mod a friendly feeling that makes it more enjoyable. But I think this thread has gone way off topic, I was actually wondering about the Gynaikonomos trait too but so far there has been no answers, just a pointless argument.

[CountArach]

I think the jokes are fine. In fact sometimes I laugh out loud at them. What people are forgetting is that Humour is not a new invention, it existed in History as well, so why not include it in a mod that is set in history?

Also the suggestion that all history should be viewed with a straight face is just ludicrous. It just reinforces the stereotype that all history lovers are boring, stale, lifeless people.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think we've expressed the EB point of view on the matter, and we note the suggestions that some of the humor be toned down (or entirely eliminated, depending on your point of view). No need to further antagonize each other on the matter. I'll close the thread now if you guys don't mind too terribly.