Historical accuracy questions

**Zaknafien** · 01-25-2007, 19:19

well excuse me, but I happen to be a US soldier, and recently returned from a year in Afghanistan, engaging in combat, in mountainous terrain. First of all, your standard interceptor vest is loaded with loads of nick-nacks, 12-15 magazines, compasses, GPS, various radios, medical kits, flashlights, flex cuffs, batons, etc, etc, etc. Youre also not counting your side plates, shoulder pads, crotch plate. We kept our rucks on more than we did not, you would never know when or if you would be able to retrieve it under fire.

**cunctator** · 01-26-2007, 09:49

Originally Posted by Zaknafien

well excuse me, but I happen to be a US soldier, and recently returned from a year in Afghanistan, engaging in combat, in mountainous terrain. First of all, your standard interceptor vest is loaded with loads of nick-nacks, 12-15 magazines, compasses, GPS, various radios, medical kits, flashlights, flex cuffs, batons, etc, etc, etc. Youre also not counting your side plates, shoulder pads, crotch plate. We kept our rucks on more than we did not, you would never know when or if you would be able to retrieve it under fire.

Are you using any kind of baggage animals in mountain warfare (as the romans)? I know german and austrian mountain troops still have mules to carry the heavier stuff.

http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/PA_1...itory=youatweb

The combatload of a late republican/early augustan legionary was around 29,4 Kg (64,76 Ibs), but including clothing. All weights based on reconstructed equippment.

Linen Tunic 0.55 Kg (underwear)
Tunic 1.1 Kg
Caliage 1.3 Kg
Lorica Hamata 8,3 Kg
2 Cingula 1.2 Kg (belts)
Gladius + tull 2.2 Kg (type Mainz)
Pugio +tull 1.1 Kg (dagger)
Montefortino Helmet 2.1 Kg (including Chrest)
oval Scutum 9.65 Kg (Fayoum type)
Pilum 1.9 Kg
___________________
29.4 Kg (64,76 ibs)

plus his baggage during marshs:

Food for 4 days 3.7 Kg
Sarcina 2.55 Kg (metall field bottle + 1.3l fluid inside)
Tools in leather bag 3 Kg (knifes, personal stuff, etc.)
bag with more clothing 3.9 Kg (Neck scarf, resreve tunic, )
leather shield tull + 1.85 Kg
bronze bucket 0.85 Kg
bronze Casserole 0.65 Kg
furca (carrying bar) 1.9 Kg
________________
18.4 Kg (40,53 Ibs)

The remainiong stuff (vallli, tent, heavier tools as colobra) had necessarly to be carried by mules.

**HumphreysCraig00** · 01-26-2007, 10:47

Humphreys, over what gound was this. Carrying that load at that speed is, well quite fast. It's more than I can do these days, but then I'm a lazy university slob.

Mostly flat with some hills, alot of it paved, funny note I stopped mainly after realising it wasnt helping but also after being stopped by a policeman saying a few people thought my bag was full of nicked stuff and had phoned them :)

I went running yesterday. I did a mile and wanted to sick-up.

Im not fit but atleast I can run a mile :) I used to be able to run 6 without much effort though :(, I miss being able to do that.

I was tempted to join the TA at Uni but if I'm going to get shipped out I want to be doing the job full time.

I want to join too but my case of fatlazybastarditus is hampering it abit :). Still I kep doing the excercise so I should eventually get there.
I just hope my stupidity isnt a stumbling block ::/

And, as an aside, no I do not support policy in Iraq if thats what youre asking. Afghanistan is a different matter entirely, but Im skeptical about it as well. Popular insurgencies cannot be won with military force unless one is willing to use extreme tactics, like the Romans.

Yeah I was wondering if you supported it as someone who was there as most of the ex military people ive seen who suported it hadnt been there.

I was allowed to lift a Bastard sword from around the mid 1430's I think. I can tell you, that was damned heavy (mind you I was only sicteen last time I was home). Then I tried to put on a Great helm, with just a small slit for the eyes, Christ my head nearky went through my shoulders.

Apparently alot of museum peices are display types that the makers never meant to be used for fighting and are made heavier and less balanced but more ornamental, I dont know if this is true or not but it may explain the heavyness.

They had heavy clothes :)

And damn another of my numbers were wrong...

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 01-26-2007, 13:04

Swords aren't that heavy, two kilos for a bastard sword is the upper limit.

Talking of gear weights. When I did my Roman guestimate I was only thing of the weapons and armour. You forget everything you wear is heavy.

I find it very difficult to believe that Gladius and tull are more than a kilo though. Modern reconstruction Gladii are usually less that 0.7kg.

**cunctator** · 01-26-2007, 16:05

That's the actual weight of an reconstructed type mainz gladius based on an example found near Chichester. The sword alone without the tull has a weight of 1.55 Kg. Genenerally type mainz gladii have a weight between 1.2 and 1.6 Kg. Only the type Pompeii gladius weights less than 1 Kg.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 01-26-2007, 19:19

Originally Posted by cunctator

That's the actual weight of an reconstructed type mainz gladius based on an example found near Chichester. The sword alone without the tull has a weight of 1.55 Kg. Genenerally type mainz gladii have a weight between 1.2 and 1.6 Kg. Only the type Pompeii gladius weights less than 1 Kg.

I don't distrust you but could you direct me to some sources I could read up on this? As regards weights I'm more familiar with mediaevil swords.

**cunctator** · 01-26-2007, 20:48

The first things in english that come to my mind are (the first mostly in english:
-"The Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies", which has a few articles about swords in it's various volumes.
http://www.jrmes.org.uk/

and "Roman Military Equipment" by M.C. Bishop & J.C.N. Coulston
http://www.romanmilitaryequipment.co.uk/

I also found an arcticle on JSTOR, but can't acces it from here, but it sounds interesting:
"Study of the Metallography of Some Roman Swords"
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=006...3E2.0.CO%3B2-J

The numbers for the legionary equippment posted above are from "Die Legionen des Augustus" by Markus Junkelmann, very detailed but only focusing on augustan legionary infantry and rather old now.

**DXL** · 01-26-2007, 16:07

Originally Posted by cunctator

Are you using any kind of baggage animals in mountain warfare (as the romans)? I know german and austrian mountain troops still have mules to carry the heavier stuff.

At least the specialforces and some of the PRTs in Afghanistan is using both mules and horses. There are serval reasons for that, mostly that there is a lot of country that dont have roads (dont think it is anywhere there is paved roads outside big popcenters) and the roads that exist cant carry heavy traffic for long before they break. Another reason is that a rider on a horse melt in a bit better. If the regulars in the U.S forces that use animals I dont know.

edit:
depending on mission and AOR I have been carrying everything from just my rifle a few clips and protective gear to a bit over 45 kilos, (I only know kilos and metric system sorry if you belong to the pound system and dont understand.).