Carl's BugFixer (V1.1)

[Carl]

However, if you want I can try the SHS with only+8 attack, +6 deffintlly wasn't enough IMHO...

[dopp]

Erm, do you really need to increase their attack by +10? 24 AP attack plus 8 or more charge makes them 'foot cavalry'. They sort of become glass cannons, with rather average defense and a really high attack to overcome the ridiculous defense of swordsmen. I'm not sure that was the original intention for them. Perhaps it's the swordsmen that are unbalancing everything.

[Carl]

@Dopp: Depends, they, (JHI/DGK/FH/ZH/HN), have lower or equal defence to DEK and thus need a higher atack to compete, the 8 Charge is more to ensure they get the benefit of the charge by getting the first blow in. DEK are unushually well armoured for a 2-Hander BTW.

As to Swordsmen being out. The problem we can't lower their armour or (once fixed), sheild defence without tottally screwing over missile balance in the game. so the best we can do is lower defence skil, and if we do that we've got to massivvly lower the atack of 2-Handers to keep them balanced, and even then we've got balance problems vs. Pikes/Western Halberds who then need adjustment too. The balance as things stand is good. we can lower 2-Hander attack, but we start having to nerf everyone then if we do that.

As I said in the last thread, all unit in this game have strong points and weak point. The strong point of 2-Handers is their abillity to destroy at a roughly 3:1/4:1 ratio any S&S unit they come across. Their weaknesses are their vulnrability to missiles and to Cav.

S&S units are nearly the polar opposite, (as their stats suggest), in that they are somewhat cav resistant, (you need 8 charge stat cav to beat them), very missile resistant, still do a good job against any non-pike/2-Hander infantry and are genrally somewhat cheaper and easier to get than the powerhouse 2-Handers. Pikes are diffrent again, being VERY vulnrable to missiles, and Flank/Rear attacks as well as low on speed and turn rate. but come with the advantage of being allmost impossible to attack head on. It's a delicte balance between all the units that ensures no one type dominates above all others in all situations.

p.s. not having a go, but things feel about right balance wise ATM to me, and i'm loathe to mess with them. Foot Knights is a partial description of 2-Handers at the moment as it is, if you where to start lowering their attack and the defence of S&S units theirs a danger it could make things worse not better.

[Stlaind]

I've been considering classifying S+S infantry into a couple of types, as they don't all quite seem to serve the same purpose.

Most fall into a class of "Line infantry". I'd tend to think of them as really being the tougher of the two, capable of holding for a long time as well as taking charges.

The rest, most notably Venetian heavies and I think Imperial knights, having AP (and in the the case of VHI a lower defense than other S+S IIRC) seem to be Assault infantry. These seem just a tad more intended for wining battles of attrition or scaling walls perhaps.

On a side note, when checking things last night I did notice that VHI really take an almost instant loss when hit by a formed charge from high end cav.

Edit: I do think this mod is headed in the right direction. While I wish for longer fights, I sense that the would be more set in the animations than in the stats. And since we can't touch the animatoins just yet.........

[Carl]

I'd agree Stlaind on the 2 tpes. I Actually consider the AP S&S infantry to be more of a High Defence 2-Hander, As thats what they perform like. They might have a sheild, but they don't real;ly work like sheild units on the battlefeild TBH.

Edit: I do think this mod is headed in the right direction. While I wish for longer fights, I sense that the would be more set in the animations than in the stats. And since we can't touch the animatoins just yet.........

Thanks, i'm going to get to work on my re-balance mod I think. That will use my BugFixer as the base, but will furthar include rebalancing. However it's so far beyond simple bugfixing in scope that I don't want to try calling it a BugFixer. The BugFixer is for those who just want a mod that ONLY fixes all the bugs. The Re-Balance fixes the Bugs and adjusts extra details throught the game.

[KARTLOS]

I'd agree Stlaind on the 2 tpes. I Actually consider the AP S&S infantry to be more of a High Defence 2-Hander, As thats what they perform like. They might have a sheild, but they don't real;ly work like sheild units on the battlefeild TBH.



Thanks, i'm going to get to work on my re-balance mod I think. That will use my BugFixer as the base, but will furthar include rebalancing. However it's so far beyond simple bugfixing in scope that I don't want to try calling it a BugFixer. The BugFixer is for those who just want a mod that ONLY fixes all the bugs. The Re-Balance fixes the Bugs and adjusts extra details throught the game.

sounds good - alot of people like to modify the more subjective elements themselves

[Stlaind]

Thanks, i'm going to get to work on my re-balance mod I think. That will use my BugFixer as the base, but will furthar include rebalancing. However it's so far beyond simple bugfixing in scope that I don't want to try calling it a BugFixer. The BugFixer is for those who just want a mod that ONLY fixes all the bugs. The Re-Balance fixes the Bugs and adjusts extra details throught the game.

Just how extensive of rebalance are you talking really? Units mainly or alterations to cities/castles?

[Carl]

Units only ATM, Mostly S&S, Spears, a few tweaks to individual factions units here and there, and some messing with a few of the composite archer units are what i'm looking at. Mostly defence skill increases to widen the gap between composite archers and normal ones a bit, and to increase the general resistance of spears/cav overall, (paticuarly spears, so now you can use them as cheap pinning fodder as well as anti-cav).

I won't say any more as i've yet to test half my ideas so I may unbalance things and have to drop some stuff.

sounds good - alot of people like to modify the more subjective elements themselves

Thats more or less the point, some people prefer to touch those up themselves, and others prefer to not touch the subjective elements, the BugFixer gives them that.

[dopp]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way Carl, I appreciate your effort to balance the game AND commit to making a proper mod for everyone to d/l. I just don't think 2handers should be gimped in the armor department and outrageously stacked in the attack department (until they actually exceed top-end heavy cavalry in raw stats) just to accomodate sword and board units, which in my opinion, have no place in the Late Period and have rather high stats in relation to everything else. In the original MTW the 2handers had solid armor and high AP attack, making them the successors to the earlier sword and board units, rather than being some sort of suicide attack squad.

[Carl]

@Dopp i don't take it wrong, and understand your point.

Your of the opinion that 2-handers should effectivlly replace all other infantry bar Pkes.

I'm of the opinion, (based on a lot of factors, not least of whuich is the way a fair few S&S are not avalibile in era restricted Custom/MP until the same time as many of the best 2-Handers), that S&S and Spears are supposed to be used in combined arms tactics along with 2-Handers rather than being outright replaced.

The fact that we have differing opinions DOES NOT make eithier of us right regardless of what evidance may indicate CA intended. It's opinions and feelings only. Your fully entitled to disagree with me, and whilst I may try to argue and explain my postion to you, I would never say i think your outright WRONG and should NOT have your own opinion.

If you belive that S&S should be tottally replaced, and I can't convince you otherwise, I don't have a problem with that, I may not agree, but i'm not some god who is right when he says he is, I just choose to amicablly disagree.

[Jambo]

I definitely don't think S&S should be replaced by 2-handers. After all look how late Armoured Swordsmen and Noble Swordsmen appear in the tech tree. I just view them as the basic and common troop type. As someone said above, the line infantry.

The strong point of 2-Handers is their abillity to destroy at a roughly 3:1/4:1 ratio any S&S unit they come across. Their weaknesses are their vulnrability to missiles and to Cav.

I don't agree with this. Defeat them yes, but not destroy them by 4:1 ratios. After all, if they're doing this to good S&S troops, just imagine what they're going to do to the other infantry unit types, e.g. spears....

[Stlaind]

I definitely don't think S&S should be replaced by 2-handers. After all look how late Armoured Swordsmen and Noble Swordsmen appear in the tech tree. I just view them as the basic and common troop type. As someone said above, the line infantry.

I don't agree with this. Defeat them yes, but not destroy them by 4:1 ratios. After all, if they're doing this to good S&S troops, just imagine what they're going to do to the other infantry unit types, e.g. spears....

The problem is not that line infantry die at a 3:1/4:1 ratio. I think rather the issue is that they do so too fast.

if it happens slower, then you have plenty of time to flank with cav (remember, balance in M2TW should inspire combined arms solutions)

[Carl]

I definitely don't think S&S should be replaced by 2-handers. After all look how late Armoured Swordsmen and Noble Swordsmen appear in the tech tree. I just view them as the basic and common troop type. As someone said above, the line infantry.

Thats been my main argument all along TBH. Their are a hell of a lot of S&S infanry marked "late" in custom battles, thats a pretty good indication to me that CA intended them to be useful. Their are also more than a few Late in the actually SP tech tree too.

I don't agree with this. Defeat them yes, but not destroy them by 4:1 ratios. After all, if they're doing this to good S&S troops, just imagine what they're going to do to the other infantry unit types, e.g. spears....

The problem with this is that Pikes allready beat the 2-Handers and Spears are so weak that 2-Handers being able to beat them harder than S&S units won't really effect the ratios overmuch. Town Militia, (who are the same stats as Spear Militia but don't get the Spear related melee penalties, (and are thus the earliest S&S unit)), allready beat Spear Militia 2:1. Most S&S manage 5:1/8:1 thats so overkill it dosen't really matter that 2-Handers do better. Spears where simply never intended to fight anything besides cav effectivlly.

The problem is not that line infantry die at a 3:1/4:1 ratio. I think rather the issue is that they do so too fast.

if it happens slower, then you have plenty of time to flank with cav (remember, balance in M2TW should inspire combined arms solutions)

I pretty much agree here, S&S infantry are anvils on which you catch the 2-Handers, you then crush them with flank charges. Even other S&S infantry will do here as their are hidden extras to Flank/Rear attacks, and other benefits seemingly related to how eager a unit is and how outnumbered it is.

Thats somthig the re-balance mod i'm working on aims to improve upon by making S&S better anvils, and giving Spears Anvil ability too, (making them useful when NOT faced with cav).

[Foz]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way Carl, I appreciate your effort to balance the game AND commit to making a proper mod for everyone to d/l. I just don't think 2handers should be gimped in the armor department and outrageously stacked in the attack department (until they actually exceed top-end heavy cavalry in raw stats) just to accomodate sword and board units, which in my opinion, have no place in the Late Period and have rather high stats in relation to everything else. In the original MTW the 2handers had solid armor and high AP attack, making them the successors to the earlier sword and board units, rather than being some sort of suicide attack squad.

For the most part, 2HS units are not gimped in the armor department. That is of course unless by "gimped" you mean "suffering the obvious disadvantage of not bearing a shield for defense." It should be pointed out that no one has done a thing to mess with the defense values of those units at all, and DGK even in vanilla for instance are wearing the maximum available armor in the game. So unless you intend to suggest that 2handers should be able to wear some sort of armor that is not even available to anything else in the game, their strength over S&B units must be derived from their offensive ability in combat.

That being said, I think I'm joining the group of people that feel the attack stats are too OTT for a lot of these units. 2-handers, while powerful, should not be a freight train of doom that can gobble up endless numbers of infantry units regardless of what they are, and live to fight another day. Having an infantry unit post 3:1 or 4:1 kill numbers against a well-armored opponent is not RPS, it's just broken. A 4:1 ratio essentially says a guy with a 2-handed weapon is 4 times more effective at melee than a S&B man is, which we all know is horrid BS. This is especially the case since not only do they tear apart S&B like that, but also pretty much everything in general melee. I mean, we're not talking about hot knives and butter here. As every unit in the game stands on ground and can therefore be engaged in melee, this is just way too much power for one unit to have. I would expect them to take about 50% losses in defeating a decent S&B unit, and at least in the case of DEK type units I would guess that a 2-4 point decrease in attack might be in order to accomplish that. I'd try 3 first, as that is between the normal stats that produce 3 or 4:1 and the -6 attack stat that produced about 4:3, so one might reasonably expect a 4:2 = 2:1 result from using the midway attack value. This adjustment doesn't put them in danger of not doing their job as has been suggested... but rather in danger of not absolutely stomping all over everything, which it seems most people would rather they didn't do anyway.

[Carl]

@Foz: I tend to consider the 3:1 to be the best point, 4:1 is a worst case scenario. However, thats just my prefrance point 30-35% losses is ideal, 25% is the lower minimum)

Also it's worth remebering that Noble Highland Archers can actually beat DEK if the DEK don't run across the feild, (as they don't when AI controlled), and would probably cuase very heavy losses, (in the region of 4:5/3:5), before dying. Granted, NHA are good in melee, but they have one of the worst missile attacks in the game. 2 units of peasent archers could probably outshoot them TBH.

Fuedal Knights can also wipe out 70%+ of DEK with a single formed Charge. if they Withdraw and re-charge they could take the whole unit out with less than 50% losses.

Pikes also rip them to peices as well if they can't get into a Flank.

Thus in general they have plenty of good counters that nearly everyone has acess to at least one of.


On the flip side I agree they are just a touch OTT, but some intresting results with spearmen imply it might be down to Skeleton Componsation factor, (raising spearmen Skeleton factor from 0.6 to the 1 the comments imply it should be makes them rather more resistant to cav and much better general melee fighters, it explains why spears perform so much worse in my BugFixer than they did previouslly in a custom thing I did), I'm going to do some tests with altered Skeleton Componsation factors. If it works how i think it will it should provide the necessery minor tone down.

[Stlaind]

I also have a feeling that DGK will lose to an equal cost in DFK if surrounded, but don't quote me on that.

[Carl]

Thats what i'd expect to happen, I've seen big masses, (about 10-15 unit), of spear militia beat 4 units of DEK before when the melee became DEK surrounded by Spear Militia. Once outnumbered it's common for unit to suffer a stunning hit which means their attack rate drops drasticlly. The 4:1 kill rates only happen in 1 vs. 1 situations. It drops off as they become outnumbered.

I'm off it try the equalisd Skeleton Comp Factors, if it seems ok to me would Stalind, Foz, or Jambo be willing do do a short closed Beta to look for obvious IMBA?

[Stlaind]

I'll toss my hat in,but it'll probably be at least 7 hours before I can put much of a look at it.

[Foz]

You're messing with skeleton compensation factors now? What do they do? I sure hope you know, because I sure don't. Even if you do know what it does, I don't see why it's preferable to simply removing a few attack points.

[Carl]

@Stiland, thats fine.

@Foz: I'm messing with them because the file says that it should be set to 1 (somthing peasents, spears and 2-handers arn't), and because changing it in the past seemed to eliminate a lot of issues, (besides 2-Handers, including Peasents), in one throw. Of course, in file comments arn't allways correct but...

For what it's worth I think it acts as a multiplier to eithier attack speed or to kill probabilities, so spearmen at 0.6 where well down, whilst 2-Handers at 1.3 or 1.33 where well up.


I just ran the tests with the skeleton Comp factors set to 1 for all units.

The test was between DEK and Noble Swordsmen. in the first 5 I controlled the DEK, in the Second 5 I controlled the Noble Swordsmen. In the third test set (one result, the last one), i controlled 1 DEK vs. 2 Noble Swordsmen. Same weather for all tests fortunatly:D.

44/8 Win
42/6 DEK Win
45/4 DEK Win
44/7 DEK Win
46/7 DEK Win

221/32 Totals for first set (7:1 kill ratio!)


41/19 DEK Win
47/20 DEK Win
47/31 DEK Win
47/28 DEK Win
47/30 DEK Win

229/128 Totals for second set (14:8 kill ratio)

450/160 Totals for both sets (45:16 kill ratio)


81/40 DEK Loss

Overall it's clear that DEK are nearly unaffected by who controls them in tems of the kills they cuase, but who controls the Noble Swordsmen matter a lot. it's probably because the AI dosen't charge with them, they try to stop the last second to brace and run into the DEK rather than charging in. When I control they charge lovely and get some kills in, (their charge attack animation is actually even faster than that of the DEK belive it or not).

I'd expect the totals for both tests to be close to the real value in human vs. human tests TBH, their the kill ratio is slightly worse than 3:1, (3:1 would be 45:15 for those who find fractions hard).

[Stlaind]

NVM you edited it

[Carl]

I made and eror when writing that. PM me when your able to do the tests, overall i'm liking the effects as one of the issues my BugFixer still had IMHO was that Spear Militia where nearly usless against anything, (including Mailed Knights and Border Horse:(). They don't beat Maild knights with a skeleton Comp Factor of 1 instead of 0.6, but they do do somthing more than simply get overun, and they actually perform in line with other spear units, (for price), now, who could previouslly deal with cav.

[Stlaind]

I think a slightly higher mass on troops expected to be able to take a cav charge helps too

[Carl]

It does, but honestly, I wouldn't want spear Militia to beat anything better than Mailed Knights. I'd prefer if they did better against the Mailed Knights, but I wouldn't want them beating Fuedals without upgrades. But thats getting overly subjective. My point was mearly that changing everyones skeleton Comp factor to 1 seems to deal with Spear Militia uslessnes and 2-Hander OTT'nes all at once.

It just needs more testing, thats the trouble.

[Jambo]

By the way it's really useful if stats are always quoted with the tests so people who aren't using the wee mod can compare. Anyway, I did a few this eve (finally a chance!):

DEKs vs HNs
DEKs 15/6/13 ap
HNs 16/6/9 ap

DEKs romped it each time, easily.

An interesting one I did was DGKs vs HNs with the HNs using the ME_Halberd_Militia animation:
DGKs 18/6/14 ap
HNs 16/6/9 ap (I accidentally forgot the extra +2 to attack)

Anyway the AI controlled HNs won! So, there may be some element of truth in the ME_Halberd_Militia animation being better than the standard 2HS... more testing needed.

I also tried vanilla Voulgiers vs the same HNs and the Vs were fairly hopeless and lost both encounters convincingly - one where I ordered them to attack and one where I left them stationary. Interestingly they did much better stationary.

It's still fairly clear from these that the DEK animation is amazing and there's no need for them to have anywhere near their 21/6/13 vanilla stats when using their fixed animation. Of course that's IMHO.

[Carl]

ohh, the stats where the ones from my bug fixer so they would be, (in order of attack, charge and then defence):

DEK: 21/6/13/ap
Noble Swordsmen: 13/3/22/no

As noted who controlled the Swordsmen mattered a lot as they only charge properly when the player controls them.

If i'm right about how Skeleton Comp Factor works, lowering the attack of DEK to 16 will reproduce the results. (So you should be getting similar results Jambo, if thats how you like them, then I largely agree with you, because they are a touch too good ATM, and only slightly weak with the fix, (i worry how they'll do vs. Dismounted Christian Guard TBH)).

[Carl]

FOUND THE PROBELM:

Whilst Skeleton Comp factor changes seem to cure it under normal conditions, I just did a few tests under 1.1 of my BugFixer, trying to see what would happen if i could get the swordsmen to charge right. The results are suprising. If you just single click on the swordsman, the DEK walk into range then charge. This tme the Noble Swordsmen also charge right and when that happens the Swordsmen inflict substantial losses on the DEK before going down. Not as high as with modifed Skeleton Comp values, but still quite good.


The Issue Then: Swordsman don't have enough room in which to charge properly if the enemy enters their charge range at a run.

Result: They get mullered as Foz noticed, taking over 40% losses on the charge, (the entire front rank in effect), before even getting a blow in. A single follow up volley of DEK attacks cuts them below half strength, and now effectivlly outnumbered 2:1, they get beat sensless.

I'm ging to try fiddling with the charge distances to see if I can't get them to charge better.

[Lusted]

I've found that reduced charge values work quite well. In my LTc mod i use:

Heavy cav - 25
Light cav/missile cav - 30
Infantry - 15
Pikemen 10

[Carl]

Thanks Lusted, i'll try those see what happens.

Some tests with me carefully controlling the swordsmen to ensure a proper charge from both sides alongside missile units has convinced me that DEK and co are ok at their current stats if they don't get a free round of charge kills in.

(Hell Longbowmen can beat DEK even if the DEK charge at them, (I controlled the DEK). So a 3:1 kill rate against S&S isn't that OTT when composite infantry units can actually manage 1:1 against DEK.)

I just need to get those damm swords working now...

p.s. I was actually gonna try and get in touch with you if I had no luck myself, so thanks for pre-empting me.

[Jambo]

I tried lower charge distances and whilst it worked sometimes, I felt that the AI had more problems executing a successful charge with the lower distances. So I returned charge distances to vanilla. Maybe increasing them might help?

One also has to remember that in a normal battle the AI wouldn't tend to match up Noble Swordsmen against DEKs. Therefore, given the imbalanced match up between 21/6/13 DEKs and NS in a 1v1, the AI's maybe unsure about the match up and as a result hesitates with the charge. Lower the stats of the DEKs and then see if the AI still doesn't charge... when the AI thinks it can win it normally charges.