@Foz:

The list of units first:

2HS and Eastern Halberds:

These get an 8 Charge Stat, +10 Attack, and AP.


Highland Nobles
Zwei Hander
Forlorn Hope
DGK
JHI
Halberd Militia (The eastern one, Turks, amongst others, get this type)
Eagle Warriors, (These had a non-working animation too, but I gave them the fix as most Aztec animations are very OTT, with a less OTT animation you could see these guys under-performing a LOT, plus it makes the New world even harder).

Western Halberds:

These Get +5 attack, and the Spear attribute added to their primary weapon. The Light_Spear attribute is added to the secondary weapon.


Halberd Militia (The western one, HRE, amongst others, get this type)
Voluge Militia
Volugiers
Sword Staff Militia
Swiss Guard
Obudshaers


Hope that helps Foz.

Also, did you actually wade through the file by hand to make all these changes? If so, props, it probably took a while.
Yeah, but I used your down-loadable 1.2 shield fix EDU files for the shield fix, their weren't many units to edit after that TBH. Now I've got the changes in my head I could probably re-create the file from scratch in 15 mins. Try editing DOW RGD's by hand, you can end up doing a LOT more in those...


Wow... people weren't kidding when they said how bad 2HS unit animations were. From what I can see, it's all in the charge. I pumped the DGK +12 attack from vanilla (no AP) and put them against DEK (demo animations)... and the DEK annihilated them pretty handily. The DEK inflicted some 30% or 40% kills just on the charge. When I set the DGK to use DEK animations via the soldier line, though, then THEY instead accomplished massive kills on the charge and went about 2:1 against the DEK. Even with their own animations the DGK appeared to be beating the DEKs in general melee, it's just that they could not cover the large deficit that the charge had caused. So I tried it another way... with both units having DGK animations, and sure enough the DGK with stats 26/6/14 (no AP) went 2:1 against the DEK with standard stats and AP.
Yeah, the Charge animations of the Halberd units I Nicked are very fast so they tend to get the first blow it. It's actually 25% that die on the charge, (their 4 ranks deep and the entire front rank gets it:(), but by the time it registers, general melee has been going a few seconds and a few more have dropped dead. The trouble is with the front rank dead the DGK don't get a blow in before the charge bonus has worn off. and are now outnumbered. It's a quick trip to a loss for the DGK then. That partly why I gave them 8 Charge stat. A High charge stat seems to speed up the Charge animation, so in combination with their high Attack, AP and new animations, it means they always get the first blow in and get very decisive victories, (at this level of attack, +3 attack doesn't seem to matter as much as you'd expect).

So... is there anything we can do about the DEK charge animations? Or anything we can do to make the charge animations of 2HS units more effective? Either one is likely to bring the units back into some reasonable balance w/ respect to each other. I'm just not experienced enough with that sort of editing in this game to know exactly what's required to make a unit use part of another's animation set...
Not that I know of, their isn't an animation editor available for this game so it's something we can't really do.

One probably shouldn't just compare by cost and type, since there's also where they come in the tech tree to consider and this is possibly even more important for balance. For instance, Scotland gets access to Highland_Nobles comparatively early.

In addition there's also upkeep. Most notable is that DEKs more than make up for their lowish cost by then costing 225 in upkeep; a value that's substantially more than many other 2HS equivalent.
The thing is, I'm trying to give CA and idea of what works, and what effects specific changes have, but that means I have to worry about things like Custom battles, (and MP), where tech levels are highly simplified and Upkeep/Recruitment Pool Size/Replenish Rate are simply not applicable.

On the flip side you do raise a VERY good point in that right now DEK have a Very High Upkeep, that naturally means that they do need to be good for their price. And in general I would say they are, they get draws against Zwei Handlers, just barely beat Highland Nobles and are bettered by JHI and DGK, (ohh and VHI, but they ain't a 2-Hander). It's not likes theirs a lot of units will beat them, and in all honesty they still tend to kill most of the DGK/JHI, (i.e. it's MAD), they're still the 4th best non-pike unit in the game, and of the units that beat them, one is effectively a high defense 2-Hander in many ways, another is only available in custom, and the third is JHI, who where the top dogs in vanilla so it's not that bad really. In fact if you where fighting anything but another 2-Hander you probably wouldn't notice a significant difference, 2-Handers fights are one of the bloodiest battle around with even low end 2-handers inflicting heavy losses on much higher level 2-Handers. Thats what High Attack, AP attacks vs. Low Defense Skill Low Defense Values does.

Your Point on Highland Nobles is an even better one though. My only real counterargument is that the Scots other infantry is remarkably good, both for it's type and for it's tech era, plus they don't actually beat DEK and are somewhat worse against other units. In effect they get access to a top of the range 2-Hander a tier or two earlier than anyone else, but it isn't quite the best 2-hander around, (it's a mater of their defense defense TBH, even 2.5 less defense matters at this level because the values are so low).


The auto-resolve goes to considerable lengths to try and properly mimic the battle - it's actually a fairly sophisticated model, even taking into account major battlefield features like rivers, town walls, siege equipment and so on, as well as unit frontage, flanking, fatigue, statistically correct kill chances, charges, ammunition amounts and so on. But in this context I would have to add that it's unlikely that the Med2 autoresolve takes account of the effect of the animation set on battle outcome. Certainly the Rome one did not, which was appropriate at the time as the animation influence was largely eliminated from actual fought battles through the use of time-to-next-attack penalties.
Thanks for that:D. I presume we can infer from that statement that Animations ARE having a effect on combat results above and beyond what calculations show?

As I said before, instead of pumping up the 2HS attacks to crazy levels, one could also consider lowering the ubiquitous DFK's attack by 2, say, bringing it into line with its mounted version. The DFK's are a relatively early unit, which for whatever reason CA has decided to make comparatively indifferent to the later S&S (e.g. DCKs and Noble/Armored Swordsmen) that are supposed to replace it. Only 1 Armour point separates these units.
The problem here is that DFK AREN'T my biggest worry. It's Noble Swordsmen/Dismounted Chivalric Knights/Dismounted Christian Guard. Like I pointed out in a post further up. DFK are actually a lot worse in comparison to the later S&S units that their stats difference suggests. If you lower the Attack of 2-Handers by even a Little it will hurt the 2-Handers, particularly the units below the level of DEK/Highland Nobles. already struggle vs. top end S&S units. If I make them any weaker they'll get beat silly.

Also as noted, any changes I make have to be across the board, so i could lower DFK attack, but if I was to do that I'd want to do the same to every S&S unit which is pointless IMHO. The entire idea here really is to reduce the arbitrary nature of these changes by making them global changes to re-balance unit classes rather than individual units.

@Carl, a belated 'good work' on the latest incarnation of your fix - having everything in one place makes things much easier
Thanks, and Your Welcome. Glad to be able to help.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Despite saying I'm concerned with the Custom (and MP), balance further up. Don't mistake that for me not caring about SP. Mearly that this is simply a BugFixer designed to fix the known bugs then bring the unbugged 2-Handed units into line with their performance when the enemy was bugged, (within reason of course). However, making it balanced in Custom makes feedback on this BugFixer a lot more useful for CA as it doesn't need total re-balancing for custom, (I hope). Hopefully that means they can use bits of it to help them out. Even if it helps give them ideas it's a good thing. I'm effectively aiming for something CA could directly implement in the 1.2 patch if they wanted to, (not that they would), without it messing up game modes other than SP. So yes I DO care about SP, it's just I want to try and cut down some of CA's workload for them, that, (hopefully), means we get a better 1.2 patch, and thats to everyones benefit.@Foz:

The list of units first:

2HS and Eastern Halberds:

These get an 8 Charge Stat, +10 Attack, and AP.


Highland Nobles
Zwei Hander
Forlorn Hope
DGK
JHI
Halberd Militia (The eastern one, Turks, amongst others, get this type)
Eagle Warriors, (These had a non-working animation too, but I gave them the fix as most Aztec animations are very OTT, with a less OTT animation you could see these guys under-performing a LOT, plus it makes the New world even harder).

Western Halberds:

These Get +5 attack, and the Spear attribute added to their primary weapon. The Light_Spear attribute is added to the secondary weapon.


Halberd Militia (The western one, HRE, amongst others, get this type)
Voluge Militia
Volugiers
Sword Staff Militia
Swiss Guard
Obudshaers


Hope that helps Foz.

Also, did you actually wade through the file by hand to make all these changes? If so, props, it probably took a while.
Yeah, but I used your downloadable 1.2 shield fix EDU files for the shield fix, their weren't many units to edit after that TBH. Now I've got the changes in my head I could probably re-create the file from scratch in 15 mins. Try editing DOW RGD's by hand, you can end up doing a LOT more in those...


Wow... people weren't kidding when they said how bad 2HS unit animations were. From what I can see, it's all in the charge. I pumped the DGK +12 attack from vanilla (no AP) and put them against DEK (demo animations)... and the DEK annihilated them pretty handily. The DEK inflicted some 30% or 40% kills just on the charge. When I set the DGK to use DEK animations via the soldier line, though, then THEY instead accomplished massive kills on the charge and went about 2:1 against the DEK. Even with their own animations the DGK appeared to be beating the DEKs in general melee, it's just that they could not cover the large deficit that the charge had caused. So I tried it another way... with both units having DGK animations, and sure enough the DGK with stats 26/6/14 (no AP) went 2:1 against the DEK with standard stats and AP.
Yeah, the Charge animations of the Halberd units I Nicked are very fast so they tend to get the first blow it. It's actually 25% that die on the charge, (their 4 ranks deep and the entire front rank gets it:(), but by the time it registers, general melee has been going a few seconds and a few more have dropped dead. The trouble is with the front rank dead the DGK don't get a blow in before the charge bonus has worn off. and are now outnumbered. It's a quick trip to a loss for the DGK then. That partly why I gave them 8 Charge stat. A High charge stat seems to speed up the Charge animation, so in combination with their high Attack, AP and new animations, it means they always get the first blow in and get very decisive victories, (at this level of attack, +3 attack doesn't seem to matter as much as you'd expect).

So... is there anything we can do about the DEK charge animations? Or anything we can do to make the charge animations of 2HS units more effective? Either one is likely to bring the units back into some reasonable balance w/ respect to each other. I'm just not experienced enough with that sort of editing in this game to know exactly what's required to make a unit use part of another's animation set...
Not that I know of, their isn't an animation editor available for this game so it's something we can't really do.

One probably shouldn't just compare by cost and type, since there's also where they come in the tech tree to consider and this is possibly even more important for balance. For instance, Scotland gets access to Highland_Nobles comparatively early.

In addition there's also upkeep. Most notable is that DEKs more than make up for their lowish cost by then costing 225 in upkeep; a value that's substantially more than many other 2HS equivalent.
The thing is, I'm trying to give CA and idea of what works, and what effects specific changes have, but that means I have to worry about things like Custom battles, (and MP), where tech levels are highly simplified and Upkeep/Recruitment Pool Size/Replenish Rate are simply not applicable.

On the flip side you do raise a VERY good point in that right now DEK have a Very High Upkeep, that naturally means that they do need to be good for their price. And in general I would say they are, they get draws against Zwei Handlers, just barely beat Highland Nobles and are bettered by JHI and DGK, (ohh and VHI, but they ain't a 2-Hander). It's not likes theirs a lot of units will beat them, and in all honesty they still tend to kill most of the DGK/JHI, (i.e. it's MAD), they're still the 4th best non-pike unit in the game, and of the units that beat them, one is effectively a high defense 2-Hander in many ways, another is only available in custom, and the third is JHI, who where the top dogs in vanilla so it's not that bad really. In fact if you where fighting anything but another 2-Hander you probably wouldn't notice a significant difference, 2-Handers fights are one of the bloodiest battle around with even low end 2-handers inflicting heavy losses on much higher level 2-Handers. Thats what High Attack, AP attacks vs. Low Defense Skill Low Defense Values does.

Your Point on Highland Nobles is an even better one though. My only real counterargument is that the Scots other infantry is remarkably good, both for it's type and for it's tech era, plus they don't actually beat DEK and are somewhat worse against other units. In effect they get access to a top of the range 2-Hander a tier or two earlier than anyone else, but it isn't quite the best 2-hander around, (it's a mater of their defense defense TBH, even 2.5 less defense matters at this level because the values are so low).


The auto-resolve goes to considerable lengths to try and properly mimic the battle - it's actually a fairly sophisticated model, even taking into account major battlefield features like rivers, town walls, siege equipment and so on, as well as unit frontage, flanking, fatigue, statistically correct kill chances, charges, ammunition amounts and so on. But in this context I would have to add that it's unlikely that the Med2 auto-resolve takes account of the effect of the animation set on battle outcome. Certainly the Rome one did not, which was appropriate at the time as the animation influence was largely eliminated from actual fought battles through the use of time-to-next-attack penalties.
Thanks for that:D. I presume we can infer from that statement that Animations ARE having a effect on combat results above and beyond what calculations show?

As I said before, instead of pumping up the 2HS attacks to crazy levels, one could also consider lowering the ubiquitous DFK's attack by 2, say, bringing it into line with its mounted version. The DFK's are a relatively early unit, which for whatever reason CA has decided to make comparatively indifferent to the later S&S (e.g. DCKs and Noble/Armored Swordsmen) that are supposed to replace it. Only 1 Armour point separates these units.
The problem here is that DFK AREN'T my biggest worry. It's Noble Swordsmen/Dismounted Chivalric Knights/Dismounted Christian Guard. Like I pointed out in a post further up. DFK are actually a lot worse in comparison to the later S&S units that their stats difference suggests. If you lower the Attack of 2-Handers by even a Little it will hurt the 2-Handers, particularly the units below the level of DEK/Highland Nobles. already struggle vs. top end S&S units. If I make them any weaker they'll get beat silly.

Also as noted, any changes I make have to be across the board, so i could lower DFK attack, but if I was to do that I'd want to do the same to every S&S unit which is pointless IMHO. The entire idea here really is to reduce the arbitrary nature of these changes by making them global changes to re-balance unit classes rather than individual units.

@Carl, a belated 'good work' on the latest incarnation of your fix - having everything in one place makes things much easier
Thanks, and Your Welcome. Glad to be able to help.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Despite saying I'm concerned with the Custom (and MP), balance further up. Don't mistake that for me not caring about SP. Mearly that this is simply a BugFixer designed to fix the known bugs then bring the unbugged 2-Handed units into line with their performance when the enemy was bugged, (within reason of course). However, making it balanced in Custom makes feedback on this BugFixer a lot more useful for CA as it doesn't need total re-balancing for custom, (I hope). Hopefully that means they can use bits of it to help them out. Even if it helps give them ideas it's a good thing. I'm effectively aiming for something CA could directly implement in the 1.2 patch if they wanted to, (not that they would), without it messing up game modes other than SP. So yes I DO care about SP, it's just I want to try and cut down some of CA's workload for them, that, (hopefully), means we get a better 1.2 patch, and thats to everyones benefit.