Carl's BugFixer (V1.1)

[Stlaind]

This echoes a lot of what I wsa thinking at first, however, cost wise those do pretty well.

Armor and animation quality go a long ways with halberds it seems.

[Jambo]

I'm now a bit confused as to which thread I should be posting in.. lol. Anyway, regarding halberds, what I've done so far is give them a universal +3 to their attack whilst at the same time a -2 to the attack of all pikes. I won't have the fortune of being able to test the changes until tomorrow but suffice to say I agree with the premise that halberds are meant to be good late units. You don't get the Danish ones until quite late in the tech tree.

[Stlaind]

The rebalance is intended to grow to include more than just fixing issues created by the bug fixes I think

[Carl]

Stlaind hit the nail on the head. Re-balancing units that have been made UP by Bug Fixing falls in this thread. Stuff that fall outside bugfixing or re-balancing units that are UP by bug-fixing falls into the other thread.

[dopp]

Overall i'm becoming more convinced that Halberds are NOT just a stepping stone between Spears and Pikes and i'm getting worried as they don't really live up to their late era status ATM.

The Militia ones are, but the elite ones need to be competitive at least with the 2handers/sword and boards.

[Carl]

The Militia ones are, but the elite ones need to be competitive at least with the 2handers/sword and boards.

The problem is Dopp that furthar play with various factions has made me realise that of those that get Halberds, only France and HRE get Halberds AND Pikes, even at militia level. France gets at least 1 of every unit class, HRE also gets an above average number of unit classes too, and thus I don't think eithier is a fair test case.

In every other amry bar france and HRE the Halberds are a direct REPLACMENT for Pikes, even at the Militia level. They get Halberds INSTEAD of pikes. That worrying me as Halberds are slower than Pikes, yet tottally unable to even challange them. It's that damm bugged switchover code again. If they actually poked with their weapons when they wern't in melee range, (as appossed to all hacking because one or two can hack as they do now). I havn't tried a test in vanillia yet but i'd expect them to beat bugged pikes sensless, and considering the price disparity in most cases this makes plenty of sense really.

[Carl]

p.s. What do people think ov V1.11 then?

[Bongaroo]

Thanks for putting this together. I was only able to play an hour last night after installing the BugFixer. I started a new campaign as Scotland, so I haven't had time to see any effects but after reading through the readme, it looks like I will be very happy for a while.

[Revenant]

Carl: Did you consider to remove spearwall formation from all halberds and raise their stats accordingly? This will make a sort of cheap weak AP assault infantry from them, similar to billmen.

[Musashi]

They're not supposed to be assault infantry. Halberds were a higher tech development of pikes, they're defensive infantry with a bite.

[Carl]

Carl: Did you consider to remove spear wall formation from all halberds and raise their stats accordingly? This will make a sort of cheap weak AP assault infantry from them, similar to billmen.

It's a possibility, but as noted a couple of posts ago by me, a number of factions use Halberds as a replacement for pikes. They really need the Cav defense, and without spear wall they are going to struggle to provide it IMHO. This is a particular issue for the Danes.

Also, HRE, France, and Denmark already get 2-handers, I also believe the same is true of the eastern factions that get them, (Although I haven't played those yet so I'm not sure TBH).

The problem is that turning them into AP Pikes risks making them IMBA, yes they cost about double he price of a comparable Pike unit, and are slower. However, they are much more missile resistant in general than most Pikes and the high level Halberds are cheaper on upkeep than the High level Pikes, (although this isn't an issue for custom Battles it is something that has to be remembered as the campaign is the most common form of SP play, for reference low level Halberds are similar or more expensive than the low level pikes on upkeep).

In other words we have an issue in which we can't really make them 2-Handers, but if we turn them into AP pikemen we risk unbalancing them. It's a double edged sword.

Thanks for putting this together. I was only able to play an hour last night after installing the BugFixer. I started a new campaign as Scotland, so I haven't had time to see any effects but after reading through the readme, it looks like I will be very happy for a while.

Thanks for the opinion.

[Jambo]

What about making them 60 man units like pikes? As well as giving them a little attack hike, this is the best solution I've found so far.

And/or increase their skeleton compensation factor to 1.33?

[Revenant]

They're not supposed to be assault infantry. Halberds were a higher tech development of pikes, they're defensive infantry with a bite.

I do not they were higher tech developement of pikes - they were used earlier than pikes (if we take only middle ages) and pikes lasted much longer, various polearms remained only as ceremonial weapons in later times.

I agree they were more versatile than pikes, though. You can cut, slash, drag and stab with them...

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

[Carl]

@Jambo: they've got +5 attack and 60 men in V1.11 but they still get beat solidly by pikes and S&S infantry and suffer much higher losses vs. 2-Handers and Cav than Pikes do, although they still win.

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

This just won't work reverent, with how OTT cav are in M2TW if your weak vs. cav you can't fight a battle on the battlefield at all. Simply put a quarter stack of late Heavy Cav can slaughter a Full stack of Infantry if used correctly. The only infantry melee counters are Spear walls and lots of armored sarges in Schiltrom. Not everyone gets those. Some get Halberds instead and thats the issue here. Denmark, and probably some of the Eastern European factions, (who also get Western Style Halberds), just won't have any effective late tech tree cav counter so even small cav forces will simply roll right over their infantry armies.

The most important balance consideration in this game ATM is that every faction has an effective late era counter cav unit. If they don't, heavy cav simply dominate the battlefield and those without good heavy cav are UP.

I'm not trying to knock you down reverent, just saying that you can't have a balanced game whilst one faction is weak vs. cav.

[Jambo]

@Jambo: they've got +5 attack and 60 men in V1.11 but they still get beat solidly by pikes and S&S infantry and suffer much higher losses vs. 2-Handers and Cav than Pikes do, although they still win.

Yeah you're right. Tests I've just performed also confirmed that even with 60 men and +3 attack, they're still fairly useless and indeed woeful against highland pikemen.

So options:

1. Remove their phalanx ability and make them more like ME_Halberd_Militia and JHI.

2. Remove their secondary attack and then lower their primary stats to prevent them being like uber pikemen?

Any other avenues?

[Musashi]

I do not they were higher tech developement of pikes - they were used earlier than pikes (if we take only middle ages) and pikes lasted much longer, various polearms remained only as ceremonial weapons in later times.

I agree they were more versatile than pikes, though. You can cut, slash, drag and stab with them...

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

Pikes are one of the oldest weapons in existence, going back to the Greek hoplites. The halberd is much more complicated and difficult to produce, but it is basically a pike, only better. It can be used to push as a spear, but it's vastly better at bringing down cavalry (Or anyone else) who breaks into your formation.

In all seriousness, the halberd should be the strongest defensive infantry in the game, even nastier than pikemen from the front.

The reason they died out is twofold: Again, halberds are more complicated and MUCH more expensive to produce than pikes. You need a swordsmith, basically, and that's a specialized skill. Spearheads on the other hand, any country bumpkin blacksmith who shoes horses can make. Naturally, the swordsmith charges a bit more than your typical blacksmith (And by "a bit", I mean a whole freaking lot).

Also, halberds are for defeating armored opponents. With the downfall of the truly armored knight, there ceased to be a need for them. Against unarmored or very lightly armored enemies, pikes are just as good (Or very nearly at any rate) so there was no point in spending all that money on expensive halberds when a big long pointy stick would do just as well.

[Carl]

@Jambo: I'd say option 2 as most of the armies with this type of alberd, (HRE/France/Papal States aside), tend to need the cav defence abilities of a pike more than they need another 2-hander. However, some (Papal states and HRE), would benefit from a 2-hander, (on reflection a 2-Hander half the price of Zwei-Handers and with no upkeeep would be valubale to them), france just plain has too many units, and the Papal States would benefit far more from a 2-Hander than a Pike unit as Papal Guard are quite good enough to see off even the best cav.

p.s. sorry if i seem a bit short ATM, i'm only actually nipping in for 10 minutes at a time between play sessions on M2TW, i've played more Sp campaign time over the last 3 days than I have to date since I got the game.

Random Question. How's Bazantyinium faring under my BugFixer, their infantry lineup was all Sheild equipped and Vargarian Guard also had bugged animations, so their infantry lineup has recived a BIG boost from these bugfixes. I'm intrested in how they compare...

[Jambo]

Carl, I think Option 2 is the only way. So far, I can get good results with the unit in 1v1, but in the hands of the AI it's still a bit disasterous. The AI just seems to continue to walk the unit even when in melee. Maybe that's just what happens in 1v1 though...

[Musashi]

Interestingly, I find that on huge unit sizes (Which is naturally my balance target), with their unit sizes upped to 60 halberdiers are devastating. They beat pikemen that are better quality even (Halb Militia can take on Highland Pikemen, and occasionally even Scottish Heavy Pike Militia).

[dopp]

In every other amry bar france and HRE the Halberds are a direct REPLACMENT for Pikes, even at the Militia level. They get Halberds INSTEAD of pikes. That worrying me as Halberds are slower than Pikes, yet tottally unable to even challange them. It's that damm bugged switchover code again. If they actually poked with their weapons when they wern't in melee range, (as appossed to all hacking because one or two can hack as they do now). I havn't tried a test in vanillia yet but i'd expect them to beat bugged pikes sensless, and considering the price disparity in most cases this makes plenty of sense really.

Halberd Militia are recruited from Militia Drill Square (level 4). Pike Militia are recruited from the Militia Barracks (level 5). How can a lower level unit be a replacement for one that is higher level? Granted, many elite halberds should probably beat militia-level pikes, but I think it would be challenging to expect them to beat elite pikemen head-to-head. Otherwise, they become too powerful, since they don't need to maintain formation to be effective and are free to maneuver.

The fundamental problem is that with the 'fix', pikemen become untouchable from the front (literally, because the enemy is unable to close with them in the first place), but without the fix, pikemen are rubbish (because they ALWAYS allow the enemy to close with them). They are the unbalancing element atm, not the halberds themselves. How do the halberds fare against other units? It's no good balancing them against such an extreme case as pikes only to mess them up against everything else.

History part: Feel free to correct me, but I don't think halberds replaced pikes; it was the other way around. The Tercio initially contained halberdiers, but later reduced the number significantly in favor of more pikes. The Swiss switched from halberds to pikes, if I recall correctly. Certainly by the 17th century, pikes had replaced most of the other weapons for infantry melee fighting.

Pikes had the advantage over halberds in terms of reach (and pikes kept increasing in length in order to maintain that advantage over enemy pikes). Halberds were primarily useful at close quarters. A pike is generally unsuitable as a weapon outside of formation fighting. Halberds were used when/if the push of pike became too close, but they needed to be part of a pike formation themselves in order to beat pikes. They were supplementary, not primary weapons. To implement what you seem to be proposing; that pure halberd formations essentially become the nemesis of pikes, is probably taking things a little too far.

[Carl]

Halberd Militia are recruited from Militia Drill Square (level 4). Pike Militia are recruited from the Militia Barracks (level 5). How can a lower level unit be a replacement for one that is higher level?

Because (to my knowledge), NO ONE but HRE gets that. For everyone else it's either Halberds OR PIKES, NOT BOTH. (p.s. caps are for emphasis). HRE and France are the only armies that get pikes AND halberds. Everyone else gets one or the other. I haven't checked Poland and Hungary yet, but I know that for Papal States and Denmark that Halberds are their last tier unit. I suspect that Halberd Militia are the same place for Poland and Hungary although I'd have to check.

The fundamental problem is that with the 'fix', pikemen become untouchable from the front (literally, because the enemy is unable to close with them in the first place), but without the fix, pikemen are rubbish (because they ALWAYS allow the enemy to close with them). They are the unbalancing element ATM, not the halberds themselves.

Not really Dopp. If they fixed the switchover code so that only those who where in melee range pulled swords you'd get the exact same situation as now. Right now if someone gets into melee range all the nearby pikes turn toward's him and away from the front, yet the unit remains impenetrable from the front. If those that turn their pikes toward's him pulled swords out at this point as they should, (whilst the rest of the unit keep their pikes), then the only real change would be those that got through would do more damage before dying. They aren't performing much different to how they should Dopp.

Interestingly, I find that on huge unit sizes (Which is naturally my balance target), with their unit sizes upped to 60 halberdiers are devastating. They beat pikemen that are better quality even (Halberd Militia can take on Highland Pikemen, and occasionally even Scottish Heavy Pike Militia).

2 Problems here.

1. your doing 1v1, that means that means theirs no other unit protecting the flanks of the pikes. try 4v4 so that some pikes can only be engaged head on.

2. Your using default formations, in reality fixed pikes/spears have formations that are far too deep. My Pikes now deploy 4 ranks deep which means that you can't make the Halberd's formation any thinner, (if you try for wider, the center just disintegrates vs. anything and you get worse results, I checked). Thus under my BugFixer you won't see them getting in the flanks for you. I tried even on Huge and it didn't happen. Try controlling the Pikes and widening the formation till your only 4 ranks deep and try that against comp Halberds, or edit your EDU ranks numbers for Pikes.

[dopp]

Because (to my knowledge), NO ONE but HRE gets that. For everyone else it's either Halberds OR PIKES, NOT BOTH. (p.s. caps are for emphasis). HRE and France are the only armies that get pikes AND halberds. Everyone else gets one or the other. I haven't checked Poland and Hungary yet, but I know that for Papal States and Denmark that Halberds are their last tier unit. I suspect that Halberd Militia are the same place for Poland and Hungary although I'd have to check.

The fact remains that most (if not all) halberd units are one tier lower than even basic Pike Militia on the building tree, which means a) 12000 less population required to build them, b) 9600 less florins to build them, and c) 5 less turns to build them. Per city. That's got to count for something. And elite French pikemen are even higher on the tech tree, requiring 12000 more florins for an Army Barracks and 6 more turns. It's just like if Musketeers cost 27000 more florins to build per city than other missile troops (which they do), they had better be the best missile troops.

If they fixed the switchover code so that only those who where in melee range pulled swords you'd get the exact same situation as now. Right now if someone gets into melee range all the nearby pikes turn toward's him and away from the front, yet the unit remains impenetrable from the front. If those that turn their pikes toward's him pulled swords out at this point as they should, (whilst the rest of the unit keep their pikes), then the only real change would be those that got through would do more damage before dying. They aren't performing much different to how they should Dopp.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. Pikemen that draw swords in vanilla lose their advantage of reach and will fight as swordsmen until the combat is concluded. Taking away their swords fixes the problem where they abandon their pikes almost instantly after contact, but this gives them a huge reach advantage all the time, even when their formation has been penetrated and they should be at a disadvantage. That's why I said the 'fixed' pikes are still a little imbalanced to use.

To be honest, I'm not sure how you would make halberds competitive with pikes using the tools we have at our disposal, unless you either buff their stats sky-high (especially their defense) or turn them into pikemen as well by removing their secondary 'weapon', leaving them free to poke (no hacking). Their tactic of taking the charge and then switching over to normal melee puts them at a disadvantage, because they are neither as well armed or as well protected as the elite swordsmen that are the only units currently able to survive a head-on confrontation with pikemen.

[Carl]

The fact remains that most (if not all) halberd units are one tier lower than even basic Pike Militia on the building tree, which means a) 12000 less population required to build them, b) 9600 less florins to build them, and c) 5 less turns to build them. Per city. That's got to count for something. And elite French pikemen are even higher on the tech tree, requiring 12000 more florins for an Army Barracks and 6 more turns. It's just like if Musketeers cost 27000 more florins to build per city than other missile troops (which they do), they had better be the best missile troops.

The problem with that is that it isn't true of Denmark, It isn't true of Poland, it isn't true of the Papal States it isn't true of Hungary. All rely on Halberd equipped unit to provide either their last tier city or castle troops, (I'll hold my hand up and admit I got Papal States wrong, they do have Pike Militia when I double checked). That leaves no doubt in my mind they where meant to be powerful effective troops. In addition, since they occupy a late tech tree position in Poland and Hungary's Tech Tree, (and are much more expensive than Pike Militia), I'm of the opinion that Halberd Militia SHOULD be competitive with last tier melee units from other factions, (within the constraints that Hungary and Poland aren't totally infantry focused, and should have weaker infantry than those factions which are).

Lastly, not everyone sees these as unimportant SP additions. In that enviroment, the only availability difference between Halberds and Pikes is Cost, the Halberds Cost more. Thus all things considered they sure as hell had better be outperforming Pike Militia. Upkeep, Recruitment Pools Size and Replenish Rte and Position in the Tech tree in SP are methods to create differentiation between factions with similar unit rosters in the Campaign, they ARE NOT the primary means of balance for me, (although i do consider them to a degree when balancing as they are still important). They are more a secondary means to help balance out the complexities of campaign play and other campaign specific factors. The primary means of balance however is base Price, Faction Play style, and Custom Battle tech level, (which is simply a broader version of the SP tech levels). They are the bits that matter to me as I know they will be balanced in Custom, and experience playing other games tells me that a balanced custom mode almost always equals balanced campaigns too. The only Campaign specif thing I constantly worry about is Auto-Calc as thats such a big thing and effects battle odds too.

On the flip side, I don't believe that Halberds should beat Pikes head on, I'll go into that in more detail in a moment though.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. Pikemen that draw swords in vanilla lose their advantage of reach and will fight as swordsmen until the combat is concluded. Taking away their swords fixes the problem where they abandon their pikes almost instantly after contact, but this gives them a huge reach advantage all the time, even when their formation has been penetrated and they should be at a disadvantage.

My point is Dopp that their formation is penetrated when they are unfixed BECAUSE they switch to swords, not IN SPITE of it.

What Do I mean in more detail:

1. What Happens without the Pike Fix: The Swords Charge in, most actually get slowed down by the Pikes. A few swords get through the pikes and make it to melee however. The whole Pike unit then switches to swords and those slowed down are now free to speed up and the pikes get hit en-mass at melee range, resulting in the formation being compromised totally.

2. What Happens with the Pike Fix: The swords hit, most get slowed down, a few make it to melee. Those Pikes engaged in melee now put all their attacks against hose engaging them in melee as do the ranks behind them that arn';t in range of those who where slowed down. Those pikes who are not engaged in melee and who are in range will continue to attack those slowed down and force them out before they make it to melee. The few swords that have made melee then get ripped to pieces and the whole formation now focuses on the other swords who are now held at bay.

3. What Should Happen if the Switchover Code was Working Right: The swords hit, most get slowed down, a few make it to melee. Those Pikes engaged in melee now switch to swords and put all their attacks against those engaging them in melee. The ranks behind them that aren't in range of those who where slowed down attack them with their Pikes too. Those pikes who are not engaged in melee and who are in range will continue to attack those slowed down and force them out before they make it to melee. The few swords that have made melee then get ripped to pieces and the whole formation now focuses on the other swords who are now held at bay.

The difference between 2 and 3? Those swords that do make melee range will do more damage as the Sword attacks are worse than the Pikes by some margin, but they will still have 2 ranks of Pikes prodding them plus 2 or 3 swordsmen pikes attacking them. If they fix the Switchover code the Pikes will still be nearly impossible to compromise on a large scale, but will suffer more losses from small scale compromising of the formation.

To be honest, I'm not sure how you would make halberds competitive with pikes using the tools we have at our disposal, unless you either buff their stats sky-high (especially their defense) or turn them into pikemen as well by removing their secondary 'weapon', leaving them free to poke (no hacking). Their tactic of taking the charge and then switching over to normal melee puts them at a disadvantage, because they are neither as well armed or as well protected as the elite swordsmen that are the only units currently able to survive a head-on confrontation with pikemen.

I've actually been trying to make them work as a kind of 2-Hander/Spear cross ATM with some success. Basically they have Spear Wall formation removed along with their secondary weapon and the Long_Pike Attribute for the Primary Weapon. They keep the Spear Attribute for their Primary Weapon.

As i said, Limited Success however, so I'll give you the news in 3 Portions, The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.


THE UGLY

Like all Spear units, they need a good basic defense to be able to survive Late era Cav charges, I was thus forced, (to make Halberd Militia useful), to raise their total defense by some 14 points. 10 Armour, 4 Defense Skill


THE GOOD

Removing the Phalanx and Long_Pike Abilities has greatly increased their speed making them much more maneuverable and thus useful on both attack and defense.

The Spear attribute seems to keep their kill rate under control by and large, and thus they ain't Uber, (more in a moment on specifics).

Their Missile resistance is raised, whilst a bit Uber in some cases, (see "THE BAD" in a moment), it's generally a Little less than what working Shields would have but a bit better than what most 2-handers have. A bit of a mix really.

More specific on kills, generally they will beat S&S with a 3:2 or 1:1 kill rate, and the same for Late Cav. They tend to be beaten by 2-handers, with the 2-Handers managing a 3:2/2:1 kill rate against them. Spears I haven't tested, but I'd expect a general massacre s with all other infantry.

In other words they don't tend to beat any non-Cav unit decisively, but they don't tend to get beaten decisively either. Even when they lose they take most of the enemy with them and when they win they lose most of the unit. However they are good all rounders. In effect you don't really expect them to beat anything as well as another unit in your army would, but they won't get beaten by anything as bad as some units i your army would. (i.e. 2-Handers might beat S&S better than Halberds would, but the halberds will do better when faced with missile or cav).


THE BAD

Auto-Calc doesn't take account of animations and they rely somewhat on having worse animations than proper 2-handers to keep the balance between them and proper 2-Handers.

Their missile defense is just a touch too good. They are currently closer to S&S than 2-Handers.

They are a bit too good vs. pikes because they have such a long weapon and such good defense. As a result they are pretty much the only unit that can strike at a Pikeman without having 5 or so attacks directed at him every round of attacks. Voulgiers for example get beaten by Noble Pikes by a 3:2 kill ratio in the Pikes favor, considering the quality of Scottish infantry and the tech levels, (big enough to mater to me here), this IS too low a kill rate, it should be more 2:1/3:1 IMHO.

The REALLY BAD news, Swiss Guard and Obaushear's are to good ATM, I'll deal with each separately:

Swiss Guard aren't too OTT, but they are a bit. 17 Armour is far too good a missile defense and their total of 26 defense all round is so good that all non-AP units struggle to hurt them. They tend to get 1:1 kill rates against 2-Handers and 3:1/4:1 against S&S, they are also impossible for pikes to deal with. Their only real balancing point is that they are Papal States only and that the Papal States don't get many other good melee units (Halberd Militia, Pike Militia and DFK are their best ones besides Swiss Guard). If they where the only problem I'd let them slide as 2 units of any S&S/2-Hander/Pike will beat 1 unit of Swiss Guard.

Obaushear's are the real issue, with an even higher total defense of 31 and an Armour value of 23 they are just are TOO good. No non-AP missile unit could touch them, (thats daft, my HA dislike or not, it's too much), and even some AP units will struggle. Don't get me wrong, with the Danish Infantry typically being poorly defended vs. missile fire, having a Halberdier that is above average wouldn't bother me, but when they are virtually immune it's just not fair. They make Swiss Guard look daft as they can beat any Pike or S&S unit with less than 5 dead. Although strangely DGK can still beat them so it's defiantly Armour related. Cav also don't do much worse for some reason. Whilst I could have accepted Swiss Guard, these are simply too much.


Despite all that doom and gloom I'm generally happy with Halberds, they feel unique from both Pikes and 2-Handers and are worth their money, it's just the high end ones that are proving OTT and much of this problem is stemming from how poor the defense skill of Halberd Militia is at Vanilla settings. We have to raise it s much to make it competitive that it's pushing even Volouge Militia to the limits of balanced and Voulougiers/Swordstaff militia to the limit.


The real problem with balancing Halberds is that they (in vanilla), suffer from the switchover bug, the Animation bug and are fairly underpowered in vanilla for their price on top of everything else. So where not only having to kill the effects of 2 bugs, but where also having to do CA's job and actually balance them properly in the first place.

I'm going to experiment and see if can't fin the point at which Obaushear's become OK balance wise and then see how that effects the rest of the Halberds in compression.

[Jambo]

Until something better comes up, I've just settled for removing their secondary weapons, e.g. for Voulgier:

soldier          Voulgier, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, phalanx, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    ap, long_pike, spear_bonus_6
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1

I'm following Carl's idea with intrigue though and if a good balance can be had with it, without disrupting autoresolve, I might consider using it. I've never been very fond of the slow moving phalanxes anyway.

[Foz]

Uh... yeah. You added 14 friggin defense points, and 10 were ARMOR? Talk about ludicrous. At the very least you have to make them skill points so you don't kill their bad resistance to missile weapons and the usefulness of rear attacks against them. Personally I don't like any solution that will make them have more defense of any sort, because it's not how the unit is supposed to operate. If that means spearwall is the only viable way to make them good against cavalry, then I say don't remove that either. If people insist on running troops into spearwalled halberds head on, they deserve to be slaughtered. I'm still not sure I understand exactly why you're having so many issues making them useful, but I don't think defense is the way to go. Maybe removing the secondary attack would be best and balancing them from there... because the unit should definitely still get shredded if engaged on multiple fronts, and defense of any sort will largely prevent that.

[Carl]

I think i've figured out part of why Obaushear's are so good, I tried knocking 6 armour and 4 defence skill of them and they where STILL beating Noble Swordsmen 4:1, yet they now had 1 less defence than Voulgiers and only 2 better attack and 1 better charge, and the Vopul;giers where managing MUCH worse kill rates, likewise, expiriance with swiss guard leads me to belive that those few points of attack shouldn't make THAT much diffrance (they have an even higher attack yet where performing closer to Voulgiers than the Obaushear's are). I've yet to try a Swiss Guard vs. Obaushear's test, but I think Obaushear's have a better animation somehow which helps explain why they feel so good no matter how I nerf them.

At the very least you have to make them skill points so you don't kill their bad resistance to missile weapons and the usefulness of rear attacks against them.

The point is i'm changing them from a slow moving vulnrable to missile unit into a fast moving unit with no real vulnrabilities, but no real strengths eithier, (other than cav resistance).

It's also 10 armour and 4 defence skil for a TOTAL of 14 defence.

If that means spearwall is the only viable way to make them good against cavalry, then I say don't remove that either.

The problem is if you give them that they HAVE to be able to beat Pikes sensless as they're going to be so expensive by comparision and so much slower that they can't afford to not do that, their speed really impacts their missile defence.

I'm still not sure I understand exactly why you're having so many issues making them useful, but I don't think defense is the way to go. Maybe removing the secondary attack would be best and balancing them from there... because the unit should definitely still get shredded if engaged on multiple fronts, and defense of any sort will largely prevent that.

As I say, it's down to the fact that without turning them into Uber death machines against everything, their isn't ANY way to make them useful for their price. And as I say my defence related change is MEANT to make them largly immunne to most counters, also remeber that units engaged in the flanks or rear suffer extra penalties on top of the normal ones for engaged head on, so flank and rear attacks will still kill a lot more Foz.

Genrally Voulgiers work fine under this system and wit a minor tweak would be perfectly balanced INMHO. it's only Swiss Guard and Obaushear's that are IMBA foz, everyone else is OK if at the limit vs. missiles.

p.s. by UBER death machines I mean 20:1/30:1 kill rates.

[Carl]

I've found the issue and it gives me an easy way of fixing the problem regarding adding lost of defence to the Halberds.

The Obudshaer's are classed as Hardy, removing that from their description TREBLES enemy kill rates against them, so in theroy if I make all Halberds Hardy or Very_Hardy they should need less defence skill to be cav resistant and that will kill the missile defence issue. Since they cost so much and are so late in the tech tree it's not like it would be tottally unbalancing to have them running around fresh for so long IMHO.

To allow moders to try out my Halberds in their current state, here's the Voulgier Entry:

type             Voulgier
dictionary       Voulgier      ; Voulgier
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_infantry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Voulgier, 60, 0, 1.2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         12, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    spear, ap, spear_bonus_4
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  13, 7, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   5, 7, 8, 0, 3, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental      5, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 10
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 510, 150, 75, 55, 510, 4, 120
armour_ug_levels 2, 3, 4
armour_ug_models Voulgier, Voulgier_ug1, Voulgier_ug2
ownership        france
era 2            france
;unit_info        7, 0, 8

EDIT: scratch that, Hardy/Very Hardy only seems to work in situations where the chance of a kill is low to start with, I guess it's a fixed reduction of -1% or -2% from the chances and dosen't have much of an effect when the defence of a unit is low. Back to the drawing Board.

p.s. to help people understand how they are working ATM. Halberds are now roughly the equivelent of Papal Guard with S&S level melee/anti-missile capabilities on top., their numbers being the only reason they beat S&S units. They get beat up pretty much as S&S with 60 men would by 2-Handers, and do about right v. spears. It's only pikes they seem out of sync with. (and missile for Swiss Guard/Obudshaer's ).

[Carl]

I've done more testing stil and have found a decent balance for the late teir Halberds, but reconciling the late and early teir Halberds is going to be hard.

In the end the degree of changes necessery to get Halberds working in this diffrent form is so great that it falls outside the realms of a BugFixer, thus I think i'm just going to furthar play with the basic ones from the 1.11 ug Fixer til i'm happy with them in their Spear Wall form and use the alternate Halberd Idea for my Rebalance Mod where I can make changes to individual units more easily.

All furthar discussion on this should therfore move their.

[Foz]

Note: Please ignore any comments I make that are not applicable to the bug fixer, and/or comment on them in the thread about Carl's rebalance mod. Sorry!

The point is i'm changing them from a slow moving vulnrable to missile unit into a fast moving unit with no real vulnrabilities, but no real strengths eithier, (other than cav resistance).

No unit in the game fits this description currently, and it should stay that way. Units without any vulnerabilities are inherently IMBA.

It's also 10 armour and 4 defence skil for a TOTAL of 14 defence.

That's exactly what I said. "14 friggin defense points, and 10 (of them) were armor."

The problem is if you give them that (spear wall) they HAVE to be able to beat Pikes sensless as they're going to be so expensive by comparision and so much slower that they can't afford to not do that, their speed really impacts their missile defence.

They don't have to be anything. You are already modifying costs, so basing stats and performance on unit costs at the expense of throwing game balance out the door is absolutely silly. If they don't do enough to justify their cost, making them cheaper is the least broken thing to do. I'd like them to be effective too, but giving them buttloads of defense just doesn't make sense. Also why are they going to be slower? Pikes have the same general abilities, so just set them to be as fast as the pikes. It's not like carrying a halberd makes you inherently run slower in the game code.

I find myself most attracted to making them more or less like pikes (i.e. removing secondary attack as Jambo suggested) as it's most in line with how they apparently are intended to function. If they don't beat pikes, who cares? Just don't throw them up against enemy pikes. You have plenty of other ways to deal with those enemy pikes, and we've already suggested that melee ground troops in general are not supposed to take on pikes frontally. Their ability to kill cavalry and other ground troops should be our real concern, as that is the role that these factions will be left largely without, failing their halberds being able to accomplish it.

[Carl]

I've just sent a PM to you regarding most of this, but i'll re-anwser some of this. Give me a moment to edit it in.

No unit in the game fits this description currently, and it should stay that way. Units without any vulnerabilities are inherently IMBA.

IMHO the IMBA bit ONLY applies if it also has some unbeatable strongpoint. The reality is they DON'T have any strong points, for their cost theyir performance vs. anything in the game is infirious to somthing. Pikes are far better cav killiers, 2-handers are better S&S killiers, cav/missile are better 2-Hander Killiers. Their strong point and weak point is that nothing in the game is a counter for them, but nothing is paticuarly weak against them, (barring cav which was a necessity for the Danes/Hugarians/Poles).

They don't actually replace any other unit, (bar spears), as well used S&S + 2-Handers + cav + missiles can easilly outperform them on cost grounds. What they give you is a general purpose unit you can use to reinforce your lines at any point with assurity that they won't fail to do about as much damage as they take. However their price should keep people from spamming them with any luck, preventing them becoming an instant-win button similar to PSM in DoW:WA.

That's exactly what I said. "14 friggin defense points, and 10 (of them) were armor."

Sorry, the way you put it i thought you thought i'd added 14 defence skil and 10 armour, sorry.

They don't have to be anything. You are already modifying costs, so basing stats and performance on unit costs at the expense of throwing game balance out the door is absolutely silly.

For the re-balance mod I am, but not for the ug Fixer. i think I can re-balance them as AP Spearmen for the Re-Balance version, but I can't for the Bugfixer.

If they don't do enough to justify their cost, making them cheaper is the least broken thing to do. I'd like them to be effective too, but giving them buttloads of defense just doesn't make sense. Also why are they going to be slower?

Because all halberd unit ARE slower moving, (than pikes) in spear wall for some reason. Fortunatlly giving them the Pikemen Soilder Line seems to fix this. So ignore that. My main point with the as AP Pikemen was regards the BugFixer. I'm not willing to start modifying costs, but that means Swiss Guard and Obudshaer's should really be beating Noble Pikemen, which is getting plain silly IMHO. (Sure the Noble Pikemen would match them for cost to performance ratio, but it's still daft if you ask me, as it means that in campaign the player can produce nearly unbeatable single stack armies).

Pikes have the same general abilities, so just set them to be as fast as the pikes. It's not like carrying a halberd makes you inherently run slower in the game code.

If you can tell me what part of the code apart from the Soilder line controls speed i'd be grateful TBH.

I find myself most attracted to making them more or less like pikes (i.e. removing secondary attack as Jambo suggested) as it's most in line with how they apparently are intended to function. If they don't beat pikes, who cares? Just don't throw them up against enemy pikes.

Not really possibble foz, even if they have the same speed, they still can't avoid the pikes. When 2 armies with spearwalls meet their are 2 things that determine the outcome in general.

1. who has the better/more Spear Wall units.

2. who has the better flank guards.

The danes have pretty good flank guards, but the Papal States and Poland/Hungary don't making it totally ineffective. Thus if they are worse than similar price Pikes their's going to be a problem as it is going to be impossibile for them to beat an enemy force feilding a similar value's worth of Pikes.

My biggest objection to them being AP pikes is that it's quite bland, they where clearly intended to perform as AP pikes with better melee abilities once the enemy got past the pike points. This is somthing rather unique in reality as it would have made them even more flank resistant and scarilly good head to head. It just hasn't worked out that way. The AP Spearmen idea was an attempt to produce a unit with a tottally diffrent feel in general melee to AP Pikes and ordinary 2-Handers.