Carl's BugFixer (V1.1)

[Carl]

p.s. What do people think ov V1.11 then?

[Bongaroo]

Thanks for putting this together. I was only able to play an hour last night after installing the BugFixer. I started a new campaign as Scotland, so I haven't had time to see any effects but after reading through the readme, it looks like I will be very happy for a while.

[Revenant]

Carl: Did you consider to remove spearwall formation from all halberds and raise their stats accordingly? This will make a sort of cheap weak AP assault infantry from them, similar to billmen.

[Musashi]

They're not supposed to be assault infantry. Halberds were a higher tech development of pikes, they're defensive infantry with a bite.

[Revenant]

They're not supposed to be assault infantry. Halberds were a higher tech development of pikes, they're defensive infantry with a bite.

I do not they were higher tech developement of pikes - they were used earlier than pikes (if we take only middle ages) and pikes lasted much longer, various polearms remained only as ceremonial weapons in later times.

I agree they were more versatile than pikes, though. You can cut, slash, drag and stab with them...

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

[Carl]

@Jambo: they've got +5 attack and 60 men in V1.11 but they still get beat solidly by pikes and S&S infantry and suffer much higher losses vs. 2-Handers and Cav than Pikes do, although they still win.

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

This just won't work reverent, with how OTT cav are in M2TW if your weak vs. cav you can't fight a battle on the battlefield at all. Simply put a quarter stack of late Heavy Cav can slaughter a Full stack of Infantry if used correctly. The only infantry melee counters are Spear walls and lots of armored sarges in Schiltrom. Not everyone gets those. Some get Halberds instead and thats the issue here. Denmark, and probably some of the Eastern European factions, (who also get Western Style Halberds), just won't have any effective late tech tree cav counter so even small cav forces will simply roll right over their infantry armies.

The most important balance consideration in this game ATM is that every faction has an effective late era counter cav unit. If they don't, heavy cav simply dominate the battlefield and those without good heavy cav are UP.

I'm not trying to knock you down reverent, just saying that you can't have a balanced game whilst one faction is weak vs. cav.

[Jambo]

@Jambo: they've got +5 attack and 60 men in V1.11 but they still get beat solidly by pikes and S&S infantry and suffer much higher losses vs. 2-Handers and Cav than Pikes do, although they still win.

Yeah you're right. Tests I've just performed also confirmed that even with 60 men and +3 attack, they're still fairly useless and indeed woeful against highland pikemen.

So options:

1. Remove their phalanx ability and make them more like ME_Halberd_Militia and JHI.

2. Remove their secondary attack and then lower their primary stats to prevent them being like uber pikemen?

Any other avenues?

[Musashi]

I do not they were higher tech developement of pikes - they were used earlier than pikes (if we take only middle ages) and pikes lasted much longer, various polearms remained only as ceremonial weapons in later times.

I agree they were more versatile than pikes, though. You can cut, slash, drag and stab with them...

But maybe the best solution will be to leave them as weaker type of "pikes" with AP ability and the faction without pikes will be just more vulnerable to cavalry.

Pikes are one of the oldest weapons in existence, going back to the Greek hoplites. The halberd is much more complicated and difficult to produce, but it is basically a pike, only better. It can be used to push as a spear, but it's vastly better at bringing down cavalry (Or anyone else) who breaks into your formation.

In all seriousness, the halberd should be the strongest defensive infantry in the game, even nastier than pikemen from the front.

The reason they died out is twofold: Again, halberds are more complicated and MUCH more expensive to produce than pikes. You need a swordsmith, basically, and that's a specialized skill. Spearheads on the other hand, any country bumpkin blacksmith who shoes horses can make. Naturally, the swordsmith charges a bit more than your typical blacksmith (And by "a bit", I mean a whole freaking lot).

Also, halberds are for defeating armored opponents. With the downfall of the truly armored knight, there ceased to be a need for them. Against unarmored or very lightly armored enemies, pikes are just as good (Or very nearly at any rate) so there was no point in spending all that money on expensive halberds when a big long pointy stick would do just as well.

[Carl]

@Jambo: I'd say option 2 as most of the armies with this type of alberd, (HRE/France/Papal States aside), tend to need the cav defence abilities of a pike more than they need another 2-hander. However, some (Papal states and HRE), would benefit from a 2-hander, (on reflection a 2-Hander half the price of Zwei-Handers and with no upkeeep would be valubale to them), france just plain has too many units, and the Papal States would benefit far more from a 2-Hander than a Pike unit as Papal Guard are quite good enough to see off even the best cav.

p.s. sorry if i seem a bit short ATM, i'm only actually nipping in for 10 minutes at a time between play sessions on M2TW, i've played more Sp campaign time over the last 3 days than I have to date since I got the game.

Random Question. How's Bazantyinium faring under my BugFixer, their infantry lineup was all Sheild equipped and Vargarian Guard also had bugged animations, so their infantry lineup has recived a BIG boost from these bugfixes. I'm intrested in how they compare...

[Carl]

Carl: Did you consider to remove spear wall formation from all halberds and raise their stats accordingly? This will make a sort of cheap weak AP assault infantry from them, similar to billmen.

It's a possibility, but as noted a couple of posts ago by me, a number of factions use Halberds as a replacement for pikes. They really need the Cav defense, and without spear wall they are going to struggle to provide it IMHO. This is a particular issue for the Danes.

Also, HRE, France, and Denmark already get 2-handers, I also believe the same is true of the eastern factions that get them, (Although I haven't played those yet so I'm not sure TBH).

The problem is that turning them into AP Pikes risks making them IMBA, yes they cost about double he price of a comparable Pike unit, and are slower. However, they are much more missile resistant in general than most Pikes and the high level Halberds are cheaper on upkeep than the High level Pikes, (although this isn't an issue for custom Battles it is something that has to be remembered as the campaign is the most common form of SP play, for reference low level Halberds are similar or more expensive than the low level pikes on upkeep).

In other words we have an issue in which we can't really make them 2-Handers, but if we turn them into AP pikemen we risk unbalancing them. It's a double edged sword.

Thanks for putting this together. I was only able to play an hour last night after installing the BugFixer. I started a new campaign as Scotland, so I haven't had time to see any effects but after reading through the readme, it looks like I will be very happy for a while.

Thanks for the opinion.

[Jambo]

What about making them 60 man units like pikes? As well as giving them a little attack hike, this is the best solution I've found so far.

And/or increase their skeleton compensation factor to 1.33?