Knights of the Old Republic & Jedi Knight

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I got Bao-Dur to be Jedi on one play-through. He has to be in your party a lot for you to get the conversation options, though. Which is annoying, as he's rubbish.

[Warmaster Horus]

Bao-Dur, I used him when I was forced to. After that, I completely forgot about him. Except for the lightsaber quest.

[sapi]

I got Bao-Dur to be Jedi on one play-through. He has to be in your party a lot for you to get the conversation options, though. Which is annoying, as he's rubbish.

Yeah - I tried very hard to turn him last time, but even on Dxun (where he's supposed to turn, iirc) I never managed it

[Whacker]

Bao can turn anywhere, his conversion isn't tied to any location, only progressing his dialogues and gaining influence. And he's far from worthless, being a Jedi Guardian he can whip through Dark Jedi like like a lightsaber through paper, esp. at higher levels. Give him a long and short saber for best effect.

Also, there is a guide floating around on how/where/when characters gain influence, and through what actions, I didn't feel bad after checking on this after the 3rd time I played through. If you are careful and concious about where and when you have people in your party, and sometimes are willing to take an LS/DS point depending on your character's path, you can convert them in short order. Bao is almost always the first I convert, because it's so easy, Mira is probably the hardest IMO.

[Warmaster Horus]

Without a lightsaber he's worthless.

[Sarmatian]

Well, that's not quite true. Start preparing him for the unarmed combat from the start and at higher levels he can be really powerfull guy.

[Whacker]

Unarmed combat is fun to do and watch, but in terms of raw dealing damage (non direct damaging force powers, melee/ranged only) you can't beat a long/short saber setup. Put the right crystals and components in, and you can deal some insane damage with the right feats and boosting force powers.

Of course, this all totally pales in comparison to a Force Enlightenment buffed jedi spamming Force Storm. Talking about clearing rooms... It's almost cheating.

[Warmaster Horus]

Say, pardon me if I missed something, but what's the difference between long and short lightsabers? I use long ones, only because they're cooler. Is there anything else, or is the difference purely aesthetic?

[econ21]

Say, pardon me if I missed something, but what's the difference between long and short lightsabers? I use long ones, only because they're cooler. Is there anything else, or is the difference purely aesthetic?

It's been a while, but I think it is like long and short swords in DnD.

If you are only using one lightsaber in one hand, the long will presumably do more damage.

But if you are dual wielding, you are better off with one long and one short (in your off-hand). I think you suffer more of a to hit penalty if the saber in your off-hand is not a short one and this probably outweighs any difference in damage.

[Whacker]

Just to build on Simon's post.

If you are only using one lightsaber in one hand, the long will presumably do more damage.

I am pretty sure this isn't true, your single long saber does the exact same damage as when it's being dual wielded with either another long or short sword, all things being equal.

But if you are dual wielding, you are better off with one long and one short (in your off-hand).

Truth. A short saber will give you a 0/+2 bonus to hit, which coupled with level 3 dual wielding feat, almost negates the to-hit penalty to (iirc) -2/0.

I think you suffer more of a to hit penalty if the saber in your off-hand is not a short one

Truth again. Long sabers are 0/0, and short sabers are 0/+2, so they do give the offhand dual wielding bonus.

and this probably outweighs any difference in damage.

This is a bit more complicated, but it really depends on feats. Dual wielders/dual bladed saber folks will benefit obviously from the Dual Wield (some correct me if that wasn't the name, it's been awhile) feat, which starts the reduction in dual wield penalties. Methinks you start at -10/-10 to hit in each hand, and then with 3 levels in the feat it goes to -2/-2. Without any other modifiers through stims/force powers, this means you have two shots per turn to hit someone, one for each weapon. With the full feat and a long/short saber setup, you should be at -2/0 to-hit, which is pretty much even, meaning no real penalties.

The converse to this with a single long saber is instead of dealing with penalties, you get some hefty bonuses to your to-hit through the Dueling feat. I think 3 levels in that will take you all the way up to +10 to hit, and since you start from 0 you can see how that works out.

In terms of raw damage and what you can realistically experience in terms of gameplay, dual wielding will end up vastly outstripping a single saber in terms of damage output. Fully twinked sabers with a max level (yourname crystal) and 3 other high level crystals, best components, full Dual Wield feat, full flurry/critical strike feats, and Force Enlightenment (the thing that fires up speed, the +stats power, and something else) translates into 6/12 individual chances to damage someone per round, and provided you picked the right gear you can expect most of those to land and critically hit.

Of course you have to build up your character right, and this stuff doesn't happen really until the later levels. If you want damage (and to look cool ), go with dual wielding. The thing KOTOR2 did that 1 didn't was make single saber use much more viable for players that wanted to do that for whatever reason.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong above, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate.

[econ21]

Whacker, I think you read too much into my post. To answer the question what is the difference between the long and short sabers, I was just saying:

(a) long does more damage
but (b) long has a greater penalty to hit if used in the off hand

and that (b) typically outweighs (a) when deciding which type of saber to put in your off hand.

Warmaster Horus, KOTOR does a pretty good job of showing you information on hit modifiers and damage when you equip and unequip your character with alternate weapons. It does not help much with the more complex dual wield vs solo calculations that Whacker was discussing though.

If you want damage (and to look cool ), go with dual wielding.

You are right about dual wield giving more damage, although whether it is vastly higher than duelling I don't know. I think we are talking about one extra attack per turn (at -2). By contrast, the duelling III feat gives +3 attack, +3 defence. People say a big bonus of dual wield is that it allows you to benefit from using more chrystals.

Personally, I always chose duelling - and not dual wielding - for the coolness factor. It is fun watching those companions with dual wielding do their stuff, but it is not for my avatar.

[Kekvit Irae]

Dueling is primarily for Jedi Consulars who want to survive longer with the added defense so they can bust off with their powers.
Dual-wielding is primarily for offensive characters like Jedi Guardian. Two lightsabers + maxed flurry = Damage to the extreme.

Sentinels can go either way, but I personally prefer dual-wielding, as I use a Scout (they get Flurry 1 for free) to its full advantage.

[Whacker]

(a) long does more damage
but (b) long has a greater penalty to hit if used in the off hand

and that (b) typically outweighs (a) when deciding which type of saber to put in your off hand.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but do agree with the above.

You are right about dual wield giving more damage, although whether it is vastly higher than duelling I don't know. I think we are talking about one extra attack per turn (at -2). By contrast, the duelling III feat gives +3 attack, +3 defence.

I stand corrected, like I said it's been awhile since I played both games, I thought Dueling gave bonuses to hit. As for damage output, I'm pretty sure that the best calculated damage output was from dual wielding using master force speed and critical strike, along with a few equipment pieces/crystals. The general idea is that the benefits given from using a single saber and the feats, esp. the to-hit part, end up evening out after a certain point, and the overall damage delt through dual sabers with a few misses will vastly outstrip the single saber and pretty-much guaranteed hits each turn. Sorry if I'm being a bit sketchy, I lost the bookmarks in The Great Crash of Winter of 06 and hence don't have the data to provide (should anyone have been interested).

People say a big bonus of dual wield is that it allows you to benefit from using more chrystals.

Definitely concur here, some of the higher end crystals gives some obscene bonuses to attack/to-hit/damage.

Personally, I always chose duelling - and not dual wielding - for the coolness factor. It is fun watching those companions with dual wielding do their stuff, but it is not for my avatar.

Meh, to each his or her own, can definitely respect the role-playing choices.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dual Wielding is still cooler!

[econ21]

Sentinels can go either way, but I personally prefer dual-wielding, as I use a Scout (they get Flurry 1 for free) to its full advantage.

Is there some kind of interactive benefit from flurry and dual wielding? Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?

The general idea is that the benefits given from using a single saber and the feats, esp. the to-hit part, end up evening out after a certain point...

Yes, I've heard that said about high level DnD as well: you are going to hit and get hit, so damage-dealing and hitpoints are kings. It's a strange game design decision, but I won't lose sleep over it as most of my gaming experience is low-mid level.

Conversely, I suspect dual wielding is also good in Kotor2, where the combat is rather easy. You are more often handling mobs, so damage-dealing is what you want. I don't remember many encounters with hard to hit/hard hitting "boss" types.

All this discussion of kotor is making me itch to go back to it...

[Kekvit Irae]

Is there some kind of interactive benefit from flurry and dual wielding? Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?

Two-weapon fighting allows offhand attack. Flurry gives yet another attack, and Master Speed adds two attacks, giving you a total of (base attacks) + 4 attacks a round.

[Whacker]

All this discussion of kotor is making me itch to go back to it...

Wait until these guys are done, they're almost there. Supposed to add at least 2-3 hours of cut content back in, including numerous bug fixes.

Why would having flurry 1 incline you more to dual wielding? I thought dual wielding just gives you another attack per turn. Does it do more than that with flurry?

In my most humble opinion, Flurry 1 and 2 are almost useless early on in the game with a lower level char, because they give you an extra attack but the penalties to def and to-hit (or was it just attack? can someone correct me pls?) negate most of those, because you won't be able to hit anything, and while you are busy not hitting stuff, it's hitting you harder. With a much higher level character, your natural abilities, gear, and force powers/buffs/stims will negate most of the downsides, so you can get away with low level flurry. Honestly though, why would anyone want to? If one is going to go with the flurry feat, it's pretty pointless not to max it so the penalties are negates/reduced considerably.

KOTOR2 really struck me as a game that it was a real pain in the tookiss and very hard early on when one is lower clvl, and towards the end, it was almost painfully easy, even with self-imposed house/roleplay rules. KOTOR1 on the other hand was consistently difficult, the Star Forge and it's endless lvl 20 Dark Jedi was nuts, even harder IMO that Malak at the end, who was just about impossible unless one used some semi-cheap tactics. It was really obvious to me that KOTOR1 was pretty carefully balanced, and KOTOR2 was really rushed out the door because of this characteristic, more so than plot holes or random bugs.

[Kekvit Irae]

Yes, they Flurry gets penalties to defense and attack. But I never said I was going to stick with JUST the first level of Flurry. Maxing out Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry are essential, and Scouts do this better because they have more feats than any other class (free feats + good feat progression). The fact that Scouts get Flurry 1 for free is just icing on the cake, freeing my first level feat selection for Toughness (+1 hp a lvl first feat, 2 Damage Reduction second feat, +1 hp a level third feat), Conditioning (+1 to all saving throws each level), or Two-Weapon Fighting.

[econ21]

Two-weapon fighting allows offhand attack. Flurry gives yet another attack, and Master Speed adds two attacks, giving you a total of (base attacks) + 4 attacks a round.

Yes, but flurry and master speed give those extra attacks to the single light saber wielder. I don't see how having such a feat tilts a character more to dual wielding - it's still just giving you another one attack (although I suppose they allow the benefit of the extra chrystals to come into play more).

One point in favour of single wielding is the 1.5x strength bonus - the light solo saber is treated as being wielded two-handed.

[Kekvit Irae]

It all comes down to damage output efficiency. Would you rather have five attacks a round with 2d10 (figuring in that you will be using a double-bladed saber), or four attacks a round at 2d8 with x1.5 Strength bonus?

Using the above weapons...
Without the crystals, the max a Two-Weapon Fighter can do is 100 damage. Figuring in a strength of 18 (I rarely go this high), which gives a bonus of +4 to damage and +4 to hit, you'll get a max of 120 damage.
Without the crystals, the max a Duelist can do is 80 damage. With a Strength of 18, plus the x1.5 modifier, you'll get a +6 to damage and +4 to hit, giving you a max of 104.

And then you've got the crazy damage of the Mantle Of The Force (or Heart of the Guardian) + Opila crystals.

It all comes down to which you would rather have? Better to-hit and defense (helpful against blasters), or more damage?

EDIT: On the side note, I personally prefer Dex builds when playing a Duelist (which I do frequently). More defense = more survivability = more time to use the Jedi powers I need to kill my enemy.

EDIT2: I didn't even figure in the Master Dueling feat benefits. Max damage for the Duelist is 116. Still lower than the Two-Weapon Fighter.

[econ21]

I could not resist and went back to this, but have a wierd "freezing bug". After combat, the WASD keys don't work. Tabbing to another character or reloading will get around it, but it is a real pan. Bioware tech support forum has half a dozen threads on it, but no solution.

[Whacker]

That's wierd, I don't ever remember encountering that one. What video card and drivers are you using?

[econ21]

That's wierd, I don't ever remember encountering that one. What video card and drivers are you using?

I think it is video card related, as the game worked fine on the same computer but with an older card.

My current card is NVIDIA Geforce 7800 GS. I just updated to the latest official drivers (6.14.0010.9424 English), hoping that would solve the problem but it doesn't.

[Proletariat]

Huh, having the same problem, Simon. Thought it was something else. I usually just go to the 'equip items' screen and then go back in game and it's resolved. I'm replaying KOTOR2 right now with a mod that let's me play as Yuthura Ban (the Twi'lek sith from KOTOR1) and it's a pretty neat twist.

[Whacker]

Hmmm, looks like 94.24 are real stinkers. Took me a bit, but apparently Nvidia has pulled the 94.24 release notes PDF from their site, which would contain any lists of known/fixed issues for games. Further there seem to be a number of Google results early on that would indicate at a glance that 94.24 is a stinker.

Might want to consider backdating to 93.71 here. Good luck either way guys.

[Motep]

Ah...this game. I beat the first KOTR and KOTRII, it was fun, to say the least. I had a jedi dressed in sith robes, witha red lightsaber. All good he was.

[Orb]

I had an awesome armour-wearing guardian/weapons master. He was just... kill things...kill lots...doom.

The two-bladed sabre does the most damage overall, but two weapons allow more interesting and diverse boni.

[Lemur]

I'm sorry, but whenever I hear a discussion about dual-wielding, I can't help think of this.

[econ21]

Well, I was inspired by this thread to replay Kotor2. I am just hacking my way into the Trayar Academy now to end it. I must say, I had forgotten quite how much I love the game.

The dialogue and voice acting are fantastic - several times, I've shouted a line at the computer, only to find it as conversation option (1). It's probably sacrilege, but I think that this aspect of kotor2 is stronger than both Fallout2 and BG2.

The sidequests and central story arc are nearly all involving and propel you through the game, even though the combat is far too easy (even on hard). Up to the destruction of the Ravager, I don't see a big problem with the main story - it holds together pretty well. The Onderon/Telos/Ravager finales are all great. (I know things sort of fall apart at the end, but by then the game is virtually over). The complexity and loose end (some might say "mess") just make it more replayable, as I had forgotten almost all everything and it was a joy to rediscover it.

Above all, I just love the dark atmosphere and oppressive mood of the game. I originally wanted to replay Kotor1, but emerging from my hideout on the first planet, I could not face the bland, sunny world (this problem with the tone of Kotor1 is highlighted by the early sidequest where you can go to a Sith party).

Nonetheless, I'm going to try kotor1 again next. I am looking forward to the tougher combat and getting reacquainted with some old friends.

[Whacker]

Welp... While we're on this subject. Anyone recommend any good mods for KOTOR1? I for one would like some that add to the game, and don't necessarily change/take anything away.