Something different

[ElmarkOFear]

It appears most everyone is using the standard 10k army as their florin level per player in most team games. We have discussed a lot of the imbalances at this level, but I have not heard of many trying to play at lower levels such as 5K or 8K. I would be interested to find out if, at these lower levels, a whole new MP experience would emerge, as well as certain tactics which currently cannot be tried (like volume of troops over quality of troops) etc . .

Less florins means more compromise on what units to buy. Powerful units would be fewer, and those units currently not being utilized in 10K games, may now be very useful in mass. I would love to see "volume" and "fatigue" become more prevalent as viable tactics. Do you purchase few, but powerful units? Do you purchase cheap, but many units? Is there a mix of these that would be better? Does this take away some of the power of the Cav and muskets? Or does it add to the power of these units? Does be concerned more about holding your lines to prevent routing become a greater concern? Does army control become more important? Do factions that floundered at 10K now become powerful in their own right? WIll balanced armies finally find their niche?

There are so many unexplored possibilities with playing less than 10K armies.

I am going to begin playing at such reduced levels, so if you want to try it out, feel free to join me and give it a shot. I would love to see a lot of people begin trying these new levels out, to find a level which allows for more variation than the standard 10K game. Who knows? We may find a level which reduces the current imbalances to a minimum. At the very least, we will get to play with those cheap to mid-level units that are being overlooked.

[Stig]

I used to play RTW at low denarii levels ... as that was the only way to make it balanced and fun

If you try 5k you will find yourself with an actually new and fun army.
Sergeant spearmen, cheap dismounted knights, hardly any cav, peasant archers ... I suggest you try it at once, I had 1 or 2 games in MTW2 with it, great fun

[Monarch]

lol, people would probably just field same army minus all the inf

Hehe, but seriously it does sound interesting. But even at 10k sudanese tribes will hold chivralic knights, even for a time, so quantity can hold at 10 IMO. Obviously it won't win in a straight meatgrinder but obviuosly if you've fielding tribesmen, he's fielding knights, then your trick card will be elsewhere (ie. cav).

Might actually make moors a very strong faction at lower florin levels, especially with cheapo desert cav too.

But ye, report back plz

[-Silent-Pariya]

Well if you went lower getting fewer units of strong units *mainly cavalry* would be more prevolent... but it would be fun watching my5 units of uber cav pwn peasant armies in 5k

10k is what everyone plays for a reason... that reason being its the most balanced. That's my opinion.

[ElmarkOFear]

Then obviously you have never tried many lower florin games. You would find that 5 strong cav, don't stand a chance against all those much weaker units, since they overcome their weakness in strength of numbers.

Sure the cav army constantly gets more kills than the opponent's army, but the cav army doesn't win the battle, since it loses through attrition and fatigue.

If you like, if you see me in the lobby, give me a shout and we can do a 1v1 at 5K (any era you wish). You take what you think would be the most overpowered army and I will take the army I think might work well at that level. We can even post the replay here in the new MP forum once it is set up. Will be interesting to test it out against someone I have personally played against in a team game and who has shown the ability to use cav to their fullest power.

I will be on this weekend, so lets try it out. You can use your most uber cav army and moves without having to worry about someone hollering "Unfair!". And better yet, you can come here and gloat about it and it won't hurt my feelings a bit: I have a reputation to keep of being a good "Bad" example of how to play TW. hehe

If I win, I promise not to gloat, and will only use the replay as an example of how lower florin games could possibly reduce the impact of what most consider overpowered units.

Sounds like a fun time! See you this weekend.

BTW: This is also opened to anyone else who would like to test a lower florin game and thinks thier mostly cav army can win more easily than at the normal 10k level.

[Stig]

Elmo is right.
At 5k you can bring 5 cav, and another unit, that's it.
I can bring 8 inf, 4 archers, and maybe some light cav. Only due to the fact I outnumber you I will win.

[ElmarkOFear]

I tell you what. To prove that even the cheapest units can win in a 5K game, I will take a 19 peasant unit, 1 cav gen army and win vs. any all-cav army anyone would like to bring to the battlefield.

A 19-peasant, 1 general cav, army with all the "Over 4 Unit" cost penalties would probably mean the units would end up costing more than some other, better units, but I don't think it will matter much. Plus, I will not even upgrade any of those 20 peasant units.

I believe Mass and Volume alone will win the battle.

I will be on either tonight or definitely this weekend. Bring your best 5K all Knight cav army (any faction you like) and fight against my un-upgraded peasant army and lets find out what happens. You can use any cav exploit you want as well. I am curious to know what the results will be. hehe

See you guys on the battlefield.

[Stig]

Right Elmo, when are you on tonight? (GMT)

[ElmarkOFear]

I will be on at around 9 pm eastern standard (GMT minus 5 hours) which is 2 am GMT time. I may be on earlier, but normally we have dinner and then the kids play on the PCs until they go to bed around 9 pm. so I can't promise to be on any earlier than that. :)

[Stig]

lol in that case I might see you if I decide to play a game after going out ... drunk MTW2 w00t

[Starcy]

This sounds like a really cool idea elmo and will def try and get som NFies to try it out at some stage. I like to idea of a compromise between elite units against massed militia or peasants :D

[ElmarkOFear]

I used it to great effect during the STW and MTW days, but I am not sure if it really applies to the new engine. I am sure going to find out though! hehe :)

[Dionysus9]

I think you need one ground rule Elmo-- no horse archers. HA will shoot your peasants to bits.

[t1master]

the aztecs will give the sniveling english kkkkkniiggits a run for their money elmo...

[ElmarkOFear]

Those cav archers would have to have an awful lot of arrows to kill that many peasants hehe Though Pariay stated he could win with 5 units of the best hvy cav against almost any 5K army. I am giving him the biggest advantage on that by only taking peasants. If he can't beat the weakest units in the game with his 5 Cav, then he definitely would not be able to beat a GOOD army with those same units. I notice he hasn't taken me up on my offer yet. :)

[pike master]

my only problem is im too lazy to change the florins in 1v1s

[ElmarkOFear]

LOL Mad Cat Mech. I knew I liked you for some reason!

[ElmarkOFear]

I will await the arrival of your Aztec Rush Army T1.

[Callahan9119]

i remember you from mtw1, i'll join any games you host

do you still bring gun armies i can rout?

[ElmarkOFear]

I can bring a wide-variety of armies you can rout easily my dear Sabutai!

You name it, I will bring it. I even had little smiley faces pasted on my guys' buttocks so you have something interesting to watch as they run away from your army. With those very large buttocks the smiley faces move kind of like this:

I miss the ole pre-patch handgunner units from MTW. They were a vital part of the make-up of my All-Missile Rush Army. hehe

Though my hosting is limited due to the fact I have the same PC I used in MTW. :) I will be getting a newer one during the Summer, and then I can be the "Hostest with the Mostest" once more!

[Callahan9119]

you were the inspiration for my nazari army

[ElmarkOFear]

I remember when you first came into the TW lobby and then started crushing everyone. People thought you might have been AMPmortog, MagyarKhan, Kocmoc, or a host of other top players in the community.

We never did figure out if you were a brand new, but excellent player, or if you were undercover . . . .. . now which was it? You can tell me . .

Now I know AMP used an undercover name of Subudai to prove how screwed up the competitive ladder system was in STW, but I don't exactly remember how you spelled yours then. Was it the same as now? Inquiring minds want to know! hehe

[Callahan9119]

your joking, i was amps punching bag i have never been humiliated in so many new and creative ways, he was fun

i was shabbyronin for a long time, then sabutai, was a looong time ago...jeez like 4 years

i quite a lil while after the lancer patch

whats your game name? just elmo? i play from 8 am to noonish EST, i can host some weird games if you want :)

[ElmarkOFear]

Darn! That's prime sleeping time for me. I work midnights to 8 am. eastern standard. I am currently playing M2TW as Hunter_Elmo. I decided to rejoin the clan community and the Hunters appeared to be similar in personality to myself, and I also knew many of them from the STW/MTW days. :)

GUess we will have to try it on a weekend Subutai. I will save a game for ya.

[Callahan9119]

same hours i work but i stay up,then crash a bit after noon... as i dont like thinking about how i have to be at work in a few hours during my free time

hopefully i'll see you around


hmm picking 5k armies is tough, i wonder how a crapload of peasants will do when flanking, just to lower morale, gotta pinch my pennies!

been hosting a few hours of 5k games

i make rules 2 max HA (so we all dont have to 3X speed for 20 minutes at the end) and minimum 10 units, honestly this is the most fun i'v had with tw in like 3 years, 10k high era is fun, but not quite as fun as seeing aztecs, peasants, guns, art and just the interesting battles that are taking place on the map, people seem to rely and take advantage of teamates more, cuz nobody has a "perfect" army

Musketeers FTW!

1 vs 1 i'd prefer 10k on high, butfor 3 vs 3 5k is great fun

[ElmarkOFear]

The thing I found about using a lot of low-morale units, in a low-florin game, is to keep them bunched together in close ranks so their morale doesn't fly south as soon as they make contact with the enemy. Plus, when I use my all-peasant army (I use 1 general cav unit, so I guess, if you want to get technical it isn't ALL peasants. hehe) I make sure my general is in the middle of the entire group and using his rally ability as necessary. Otherwise, it is very difficult to win with all-peasants. Plus, you have to hope your opponent brings just a very few expensive cav units and not a lot of swords, or spears, with archers. Fire arrows are murder on those poor little peasants. hehe

I haven't played a 4v4 on 5k yet. Would be interesting. :)

[Callahan9119]

haha most peasants i took was 2, just to try to get them behind enemy to lower morale, not so much attack

i had some great games, one where me and an ally had only like 4 units between us... i had 2 units of muskets both at 25ish strength he had 2 cav units of about 5 men each we ended up routing like 100 archers and 3 units of moor spearmen of about 30 men each. was a crazy game from start to finish


guns make people run away

[ElmarkOFear]

hehe I like the effect the mass of units does to any other unit. If you stack peasants properly, they will outnumber an enemy unit so greatly, it will go to 'shaken' very quickly.

There are a couple of Aztec units which use fear to break the morale of enemy units. I forget their names, but they are always fun.