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A question arose during discussion on an English combined-arms tactics thread. Are light cavalry like hobilars really any faster than knights?
According to unit stats, there are only four types of melee cav that are "fast":
Alan Light Cavalry (Mercenary)
Albanian Cavalry (Mercenary)
Border Horse (Scotland)
Stradiots (Venice)
But are other types as fast or faster than knights? Is there an advantage with light melee cav other than being cheaper?
According to unit stats, there are only four types of melee cav that are "fast":
Alan Light Cavalry (Mercenary)
Albanian Cavalry (Mercenary)
Border Horse (Scotland)
Stradiots (Venice)
But are other types as fast or faster than knights? Is there an advantage with light melee cav other than being cheaper?
I have no personal experience with them, but I would assume so. Unarmored cavalry seems to have one speed, and armored cavalry another. I'm on turn 150 of a Turkish campaign in which I have solely used Turkomans (unarmored) and Sipahis (armored). The Sipahi description states that they have sacrificed some speed and mobility compared to their unarmored counterparts, but they are much better equipped to fight in melee for longer periods. I've certainly noticed this many times in my campaign-when the enemy army is sufficiently weakened by missile fire and it's time to mass-charge them, Turkomans close much faster than Sipahis. It's also noticeable when they're being chased by enemy cavalry.
So yes, they really are faster. I would say that unless you need to flee an enemy or really maximize your captures at the end of a battle, heavy cavalry is better. The speed difference is pretty slight, and so heavy cavalry will be able to chase routers almost as well. It's also important to mention that while harassment is a decent strategy, it's used more often because light cavalry must fill the place of insufficient numbers of heavy cavalry, and harassment is all light cavalry can really do.
So yes, they really are faster. I would say that unless you need to flee an enemy or really maximize your captures at the end of a battle, heavy cavalry is better. The speed difference is pretty slight, and so heavy cavalry will be able to chase routers almost as well. It's also important to mention that while harassment is a decent strategy, it's used more often because light cavalry must fill the place of insufficient numbers of heavy cavalry, and harassment is all light cavalry can really do.
Yeah, my knights pursuing routing enemy knights never catch up. However, if I send holibars, they are able eventually to chase them down.
I've noticed that mailed knights were able to catch fleeing generals while feudal knights couldn't do it.
So i think the speed of the cavalry units is linked to the armour carried by the horses :
Mailed knights without armour are faster than bodyguards with armour even if they are both knights.
So i think the speed of the cavalry units is linked to the armour carried by the horses :
Mailed knights without armour are faster than bodyguards with armour even if they are both knights.
In my English Campaign I always kept at least 1-2 units of Holibars in every stack specifically to ride down any fleeing generals or knights -- I definitely noticed in several battles that armored cav (all types) couldn't catch up and chase down fleeing calvary very well at all compared to Holibars. Most of the time I'd send mailed knights after a fleeing general, the general would get away. But the light cav would almost always get him, even if they had to close a bit of distance first.
Similar thing in my Turks campaign, I always try to have a pair of Turkomans in the stack for the same purpose.
Similar thing in my Turks campaign, I always try to have a pair of Turkomans in the stack for the same purpose.
Originally Posted by Leimadophus:
Yeah, my knights pursuing routing enemy knights never catch up. However, if I send holibars, they are able eventually to chase them down.
That is my experience as well and it happened to a fresh general, meaning that he was the last unit of his army, didn't fight the entire battle and routed almost immediatly after charging, so he wasn't tired or exhausted. Yeah, my knights pursuing routing enemy knights never catch up. However, if I send holibars, they are able eventually to chase them down.
Secondly, Hobilars easily outrun feudal knights when needing to retreat quickly, that's why they're so good at harassing. They can nicely draw away knights who will never catch them.
does anyone know which stat(s) GOVern this if you wanted to edit it
Well, one of the most valuable functions of light cavalry, reconnaissance, does not come into play. It would be nice if having light cavalry in an army extended sight range on the campaign map by three or four squares. As it stands, spies are the best scouts. On crusade, however, it would be better to have some light cav for recon since agent tag-alongs negate the bonus movement.
This thread needs a tester - a person with a stop watch and some time to kill. Some members (CBR?) measured running speeds in M2TW to compare them with MTW and RTW. But I am not sure how they managed to translate the distance covered in game into metres.
Every once in a while I notice that the Mercenary Frankish Knights, when controlled by the AI, move super fast. I don't know if this is an AI cheat or something but they certainly move faster than any of my heavy cavalry.
Ohhh and Stradiots <drooooool> if only I could recruit them and Vards into one army ...
Ohhh and Stradiots <drooooool> if only I could recruit them and Vards into one army ...
Originally Posted by KARTLOS:
does anyone know which stat(s) GOVern this if you wanted to edit it
Check unit stats for hardy, very hard, etc.does anyone know which stat(s) GOVern this if you wanted to edit it
It's time for some preliminary findings:
WARNING! LONG, INDULGENT POST AHEAD!
Trial 1: Roman Equestrian Open Championships 1080
The Field:
Grassy Plains, clear skies. Vanilla M2TW, very hard difficulty, huge regiments.
The Contestants:
The Judge:
Emperor Alex the Watcher and his drinking buddies (I needed the general's slot filled by a non-competing unit).
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders (custom battles need at least one enemy unit and the Scots are the default second army)
Procedure:
Results:
The fast ponies were the winners, by a significant margin (Vards, Skys and Alans). They finished four or five unit lengths before the heavy horses and eight unit lengths in front of the cataphracts on their armored horses. All units were remarkably consistent in their performance within their mount class. All the fast ponies arrived in a straight line at the finish every single time, followed by the heavy horse in a straight line too, with the unfortunate cataphracts bringing up the rear. I would suggest that the cataphracts are 20% slower than the fast ponies and 10% slower than the heavy horses.
Trial 2: Royal Derby 1080
I needed to test regular ponies and barded horses, basically.
The Contestants:
The Judge:
King Bob the Malevolent and his gambling creditors.
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders (again)
Results:
As expected, the Demi-Lancers and Hobs surged ahead on their unarmored horses and ponies, finishing first. The barded knights all trundled along at cataphract speed, finishing 5 unit lengths behind the faster horses. Consistent with the earlier test.
Trial 3: Corduba Festival 1080
Special thanks to the Moors for building the racetrack just before the Reconquista overran the city.
The Contestants:
The Judge:
King Rodrigo the Completely Insane and his medical staff.
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders
Results:
The Jinettes showed their prowess and zipped ahead, hotly pursued by the Mailed Knights several unit lengths back on their heavy horses. The Feudals, Chivalrics and Gendarmes brought up the rear with their barded and mailed steeds.
Conclusion:
Unit speed appears to be determined by mount type, and the difference is noticeable. Fast ponies are quickest, followed by ponies and heavy horses (unarmored horses), followed by the armored and barded horses. So, if your knights happen to have unbarded horses, like Latinkons and Italian Men-at-Arms, chances are that they are a little faster than those with armored steeds.
Edit: I did some other tests with Cataphracts, Byz Lancers and Vards, testing various combinations of armor upgrades and experience levels. It made no difference that I could see.
WARNING! LONG, INDULGENT POST AHEAD!
Trial 1: Roman Equestrian Open Championships 1080
The Field:
Grassy Plains, clear skies. Vanilla M2TW, very hard difficulty, huge regiments.
The Contestants:
- 2nd House Cavalry (Cataphracts, Armored Horses)
- 23rd Macedonian Lancers (Byz Lancers, Heavy Horses)
- 18th Trebizond Dragoons (Byz Cavalry, Heavy Horses)
- 9th Imperial Heavy Cavalry Auxilia (Latinkons, Heavy Horses)
- 44th Imperial Light Cavalry Auxilia (Skys, Fast Ponies)
- 37th Imperial Elite Light Cavalry Auxilia (Vards, Fast Ponies)
- 52nd Imperial Light Cavalry Auxilia (Alans, Fast Ponies)
The Judge:
Emperor Alex the Watcher and his drinking buddies (I needed the general's slot filled by a non-competing unit).
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders (custom battles need at least one enemy unit and the Scots are the default second army)
Procedure:
- All competing units are ranked four deep (no cheating by deploying in 3 ranks, you smelly, cheesy Defense 9 Vards).
- As the 'entertainment' blocks the path down the centre, everyone except Alex is moved off to the left side.
- All competitors are grouped and lined up using the 'single line' formation. The grouping is then disbanded.
- The battle is started and then paused.
- Each competing unit is selected individually and ordered to move to the other end of the battlefield. The spacebar is held down during the operation to make sure that the end positions of the units are all in line and not overlapping each other (otherwise they would bump into each other at some point and slow down).
- Each competing unit is again selected individually and ordered to run by pressing 'R'.
- The game is unpaused and run on normal time. The contestants are monitored closely during the race to gauge their performance.
- After everyone is finished, the judge then appeases the gods by attacking the entertainment with a formed charge, completely annihilating it.
- Rinse and repeat, five times.
Results:
The fast ponies were the winners, by a significant margin (Vards, Skys and Alans). They finished four or five unit lengths before the heavy horses and eight unit lengths in front of the cataphracts on their armored horses. All units were remarkably consistent in their performance within their mount class. All the fast ponies arrived in a straight line at the finish every single time, followed by the heavy horse in a straight line too, with the unfortunate cataphracts bringing up the rear. I would suggest that the cataphracts are 20% slower than the fast ponies and 10% slower than the heavy horses.
Trial 2: Royal Derby 1080
I needed to test regular ponies and barded horses, basically.
The Contestants:
- 1st Life Guards (English Knights, Barded Horses)
- Royal Horse Guards (Feudal Knights, Barded Horses)
- 21st Lancers (Demi-Lancers, Heavy Horses)
- 13th 'Hussars' (Hobs, Ponies)
The Judge:
King Bob the Malevolent and his gambling creditors.
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders (again)
Results:
As expected, the Demi-Lancers and Hobs surged ahead on their unarmored horses and ponies, finishing first. The barded knights all trundled along at cataphract speed, finishing 5 unit lengths behind the faster horses. Consistent with the earlier test.
Trial 3: Corduba Festival 1080
Special thanks to the Moors for building the racetrack just before the Reconquista overran the city.
The Contestants:
- 1st Royal Latrine Losers (Gendarmes, Mailed Horses)
- 2nd Royal Lancers (Chivalric Knights, Barded Horses)
- 3rd Royal Lancers (Feudal Knights, Barded Horses)
- 12th Royal Lancers (Mailed Knights, Heavy Horses)
- "The Bullfighters" (Jinettes, Fast Ponies)
The Judge:
King Rodrigo the Completely Insane and his medical staff.
The Entertainment:
Malcolm's Happy Highlanders
Results:
The Jinettes showed their prowess and zipped ahead, hotly pursued by the Mailed Knights several unit lengths back on their heavy horses. The Feudals, Chivalrics and Gendarmes brought up the rear with their barded and mailed steeds.
Conclusion:
Unit speed appears to be determined by mount type, and the difference is noticeable. Fast ponies are quickest, followed by ponies and heavy horses (unarmored horses), followed by the armored and barded horses. So, if your knights happen to have unbarded horses, like Latinkons and Italian Men-at-Arms, chances are that they are a little faster than those with armored steeds.
Edit: I did some other tests with Cataphracts, Byz Lancers and Vards, testing various combinations of armor upgrades and experience levels. It made no difference that I could see.
Originally Posted by dopp:
It's time for some preliminary findings:
It's time for some preliminary findings:
Nice test, dopp.Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson:
According to unit stats, there are only four types of melee cav that are "fast":
Just an aside, the export_description_unit file actually calls the mounts that I've labelled as "fast" in my guide "fast_pony". Since there's no generic pony I cut that off due to column width.According to unit stats, there are only four types of melee cav that are "fast":
There are regular ponies, though. Hobilars, French Mounted Archers and Danish Scouts ride them. They only move as fast as heavy unarmored horses.
Originally Posted by dopp:
There are regular ponies, though. Hobilars, French Mounted Archers and Danish Scouts ride them. They only move as fast as heavy unarmored horses.
There are regular ponies, though. Hobilars, French Mounted Archers and Danish Scouts ride them. They only move as fast as heavy unarmored horses.
Arg! I didn't notice that but you're right.I'll fix that in my guide asap.
so if for example i changed the description of norman knight to fast pony it would make him faster, but would it effect his armour value?
So it is exactly as I said it was in the English tactics thread.
What intrigues me more however is why there are 3 horse speed types and why they offer the same amount of protection (at equal armor/defence levels) instead of armored and barded horses getting some bonus in defense.
What intrigues me more however is why there are 3 horse speed types and why they offer the same amount of protection (at equal armor/defence levels) instead of armored and barded horses getting some bonus in defense.
Cataphracts in MTW had equal armor to Chivalrics and so on, but were even slower than they are in M2TW.
Originally Posted by econ21:
This thread needs a tester - a person with a stop watch and some time to kill. Some members (CBR?) measured running speeds in M2TW to compare them with MTW and RTW. But I am not sure how they managed to translate the distance covered in game into metres.
Yep I did some tests. I found the distances by putting several units into one line and multiplying number of files with the distance between each file. Then its just a question of timing the units running along that line.This thread needs a tester - a person with a stop watch and some time to kill. Some members (CBR?) measured running speeds in M2TW to compare them with MTW and RTW. But I am not sure how they managed to translate the distance covered in game into metres.
That distance can either be taken from the unit stat file(soldier spacing side to side) or measured by using a missile unit and see how far away you can move the pointer before the little arrow turns red (which means its out of range) and then see how many files that is.
For infantry its either 1.2 or 1.6 meters per file.
Both infantry and cavalry have 3 run speed categories. For infantry its about 157/215/255 meters/minute and cavalry
CBR
Thanks, CBR and Dopp.
Putting your findings together:
There are three horse speeds:
Fast: 600 metres/minute. (14% faster than normal)
This covers fast ponies.
Includes Alans, jinettes, stradiots, border horse, albanian light cavalry, most horse archers, Skys, Vards
Normal: 525 metres/minute
This covers heavy horses and ponies. Basically all horses that are not "fast ponies" and don't have any armour.
Includes mailed knights, mercenary Frankish knights, demi-lancers, Latinkons, Byzantince cavalry, lancers, hobilars, Danish scouts, French mounted archers
Slow: 415 metres/minute (21% slower than normal)
This covers mailed, barded and armoured horses.
Includes feudal and Chivalric knights, gendarmes,Italian men-at-arms, kataphracts. Sipahis?
I wonder, is there anyway in the game to tell which horse speed your unit has? I am guessing the fast ponies say "fast" in the unit description? But I have not worked out how to tell if the unit is slow (is it just a matter of seeing if the horse is covered by something).
R'as al Ghul - having this information in your tables would be really nice.
BTW: are mounted crossbowmen still fast like in MTW? (always seemed a little odd, but nice for my HRE).
Putting your findings together:
There are three horse speeds:
Fast: 600 metres/minute. (14% faster than normal)
This covers fast ponies.
Includes Alans, jinettes, stradiots, border horse, albanian light cavalry, most horse archers, Skys, Vards
Normal: 525 metres/minute
This covers heavy horses and ponies. Basically all horses that are not "fast ponies" and don't have any armour.
Includes mailed knights, mercenary Frankish knights, demi-lancers, Latinkons, Byzantince cavalry, lancers, hobilars, Danish scouts, French mounted archers
Slow: 415 metres/minute (21% slower than normal)
This covers mailed, barded and armoured horses.
Includes feudal and Chivalric knights, gendarmes,Italian men-at-arms, kataphracts. Sipahis?
I wonder, is there anyway in the game to tell which horse speed your unit has? I am guessing the fast ponies say "fast" in the unit description? But I have not worked out how to tell if the unit is slow (is it just a matter of seeing if the horse is covered by something).
R'as al Ghul - having this information in your tables would be really nice.
BTW: are mounted crossbowmen still fast like in MTW? (always seemed a little odd, but nice for my HRE).
Mounted Xbows are fast ponies so yes.
If its fast pony it will have it in the unit description. For normal vs slow you just need to know by looking at the unit's portrait
If its fast pony it will have it in the unit description. For normal vs slow you just need to know by looking at the unit's portrait
Originally Posted by econ21:
R'as al Ghul - having this information in your tables would be really nice.
Yes, I've said above that I'll correct the entries for "fast" to just "pony" for the respective units. In fact they're finished but I can't ftp from work.R'as al Ghul - having this information in your tables would be really nice.
Do you also want me to include the metres/minute values or shall I add a column that says "fast", "normal" or "slow"?
Thanks, Factionheir - I'll pass on that info to our Throne Room HRE PBM players. 
CBRs translations into metres/per second could go in the notes.
Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul:
Do you also want me to include the metres/minute values or shall I add a column that says "fast", "normal" or "slow"?
A column for "fast", "normal" and "slow" would be ideal. Do you also want me to include the metres/minute values or shall I add a column that says "fast", "normal" or "slow"?
CBRs translations into metres/per second could go in the notes. I've updated the FAQ with the information in this thread.
Originally Posted by CBR:
For infantry its about 157/215/255 meters/minute ...
Off-topic, but for completeness, I have to ask - which infantry is fast and which slow? And how can you tell?For infantry its about 157/215/255 meters/minute ...
Actually, I've noticed that the separation distance between fast and medium is about the same as the separation between the medium and slow, so I'm not so sure about the 14% faster and 21% slower, it looks more like 15% and 15% to me.
Yes, it's just a matter of seeing whether the horses have barding or not.
Yes, it's just a matter of seeing whether the horses have barding or not.
Econ21, I'll proceed as suggested. BTW, Italian MAA have barded horses and hence are slow.
dopp, I guess Elephants are slow and camels normal speed?
R'as
dopp, I guess Elephants are slow and camels normal speed?
R'as
Not sure about camels even though I used them as moors before, but I think they can't keep up with mailed knights, so likely they count as slow.
As for infantry speeds, there are differences too yes.
I noticed peasants and longbows can outrun sergeant spearmen for example but Hashashim cannot.
Thats about as far as I have consciously tested.
I suppose there is "light " "medium" and "heavy" infantry. In game, you only see light, spear, missile and heavy however, so its not that easy to distinguish.
I'm guessing it has to do with the armour type the unit has to begin with though. But then it wouldn't quite explain why peasants and longbows outrun sergeant spearmen which really have the same armour types?
As for infantry speeds, there are differences too yes.
I noticed peasants and longbows can outrun sergeant spearmen for example but Hashashim cannot.
Thats about as far as I have consciously tested.
I suppose there is "light " "medium" and "heavy" infantry. In game, you only see light, spear, missile and heavy however, so its not that easy to distinguish.
I'm guessing it has to do with the armour type the unit has to begin with though. But then it wouldn't quite explain why peasants and longbows outrun sergeant spearmen which really have the same armour types?
Camels are 5-10% slower than armored horses.
As for elephants... I think 'slow as molasses' describes them perfectly. 50% slower than regular horses.
I think unit mass determines run speed for infantry. All archer types have 0.8, whereas most normal infantry get 1.0. However, I have never tested this hypothesis.
As for elephants... I think 'slow as molasses' describes them perfectly. 50% slower than regular horses.
I think unit mass determines run speed for infantry. All archer types have 0.8, whereas most normal infantry get 1.0. However, I have never tested this hypothesis.
thats funny i never here of any of these types of horses in the kentucky derby :|
I just rechecked the numbers and I found a small error with the light cav. Testing using longer distances makes cav slightly faster because of the short delay before they get up to speed. I have updated my original post.
CBR
CBR
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