gonna stop blaming the muslims

[Fragony]

I just realised how our collective cultural undoing can be summarised in one word: 'xenophobic'. What does it mean, fear of the unknown, fear of change. In this very word lies the assumption that change is a good thing per se, why is that, why this fundamental believe that change is always for the good, for the blind left it doesn't matter how it changes as long as it does. We ask the muslims to integrate, but we have no idea who we are, so they should integrate into what exactly? They know they live in a changing country, and it's only natural that they claim their place here, they only step on the space we give them. That is why we need a dominant culture with a clear identity, so that we don't give any false expectations, must be confusing as hell for them. The real fundamentalists can be found on the multicultist left, they are the real destroyers, muslims are also taken for a ride in this change-blitzkrieg, and that isn't good for any of us.

[KukriKhan]

So your question is:

What is truly, exclusively, Dutch?

Or something else?

[Andres]

Or are you pointing out some kind of contradiction: on the one hand the "Dutch left multicultists" agree that muslims have to integrate into "thé" Dutch society, id est accepting its' legislation, learning its' habits and customs etc etc, but on the other hand they stand for an ever changing society thus constantly changing what they want the muslims to accept making it impossible for them to fit in said society?

Is that what you mean Fragony?

[Fragony]

What is truly, exclusively, Dutch?

Me.

No the question is, why the assumption that change is always a good thing, why are we talking about 'fear of the unknown' aka 'xenophobia'. Let me give you an example, let's say a muslima that refuses to give males a hand in her profession, and the immediate backing she gets from the all these organisation that protect the rights of majorities, why do these organisation do this? I think it's the blind believe that we need to trancend into something else, don't want to join the party, then you are afraid, a xenophobe.

[Fragony]

Or are you pointing out some kind of contradiction: on the one hand the "Dutch left multicultists" agree that muslims have to integrate into "thé" Dutch society, id est accepting its' legislation, learning its' habits and customs etc etc, but on the other hand they stand for an ever changing society thus constantly changing what they want the muslims to accept making it impossible for them to fit in said society?

Is that what you mean Fragony?

yes, but you said it better

[Stig]

The Allochtonen (yes it's actually English) are the only real Dutch.
They don't pay their taxes, they live of a compensation they get from the Goverment because they can't work

The real fundamentalists can be found on the multicultist left

And in Venlo, damned Wilders, I mean if someone is a fundamentalist and danger for the country it's him (and his gang), not the guy from Marocco that lives at the end of the street here

[doc_bean]

Wouldn't it be easier if you just all became muslims then ?

just asking

[Stig]

Wouldn't it be easier if you just all became muslims then ?

just asking

Try suggesting that in Urk, Staphorst and Giethoorn

My god we Dutch are just as bad, had an away match in Rijssen once, and when I play bad I swear at myself, and out loud. I will never do that again in Rijssen, I bet they still now it's me even tho it was last year ... ofcourse some say that it isn't nice to swear using "the lords" name, but seriously, they would have lynched me if that wouldn't be illegal.


We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one? I mean what is the Dutch culture? Hasj, Coke, Weed? Urk, Staphorst and some other Religious fortress in the countryside. Nah we should be happy they are here, we invited them here, to do the jobs we didn't want, and still don't want, and they are happy to help us. Ofcourse sometimes there's a rotten apple, but for every rotten apple there is an entire basket of good and tastefull apples.

[Fragony]

And in Venlo, damned Wilders, I mean if someone is a fundamentalist and danger for the country it's him (and his gang), not the guy from Marocco that lives at the end of the street here

How can de maroccan guy at the end of the street know when he is crossing boundaries if there is nobody to tell him? Not that I like him but I do agree with Wilders, we need one dominant culture, where there is a place for the islam.

Ordnung must sein ;)

We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one?

Oh boy do they got you.......

[Vladimir]

We always say our Dutch culture is superior, but do we have one? I mean what is the Dutch culture? Hasj, Coke, Weed? Urk, Staphorst and some other Religious fortress in the countryside. Nah we should be happy they are here, we invited them here, to do the jobs we didn't want, and still don't want, and they are happy to help us. Ofcourse sometimes there's a rotten apple, but for every rotten apple there is an entire basket of good and tastefull apples.

Calvinism? Or maybe I’m just not up with the times .

[Stig]

Ja, und Arbeit macht frei

Not that I like him but I do agree with Wilders, we need one dominant culture, where there is a place for the islam.

No no no, Wilders says there's no place for the Islam.
Personally I would rather have the SGP, they're bad, but atleast they aren't racists. Which Wilders is

Calvinism?

Yes Calvinists ... dangerous

[KukriKhan]

Sometimes a view from the outside looking in is helpful:

(this is based on what I've seen & read in various media + being married 9 years into a 1st-gen american Dutch family (in the 70's) + "knowing" the Dutchmen here)

I see the Dutch as hard-working, ambitious, yet modest people. Boasting, or even mentioning one's accomplishments is not only embarrassing, it's seen as downright rude. They love to laugh - especially the "head thrown back, lungs full of air" -type laugh. But they have a dark side too, and can be (briefly) gloomier than any stereotypical Russian in the dead of winter. A pragmatic people, things are what they are, and no more; flashy opulence is unnecessary, inefficient, and distasteful. They've almost perfected the "live and let live" philosophy, but don't back away from self-examination, the better to purge any ostentatious-ness that may have crept in. Artisans of "the fair deal", they constantly look for ways to broker win-win situations among people.

They make pretty good beer.

[Fragony]

Seems like you know us well Kukri, yes those are all very dutch things indeed

Vladimirs 'calvinist' wasn't so far off

[Rameusb5]

So if I have an uncontrollable fear of Xenos, what would that be called? Strangerphobia?

Sorry, I'm derailing your thread...

[yesdachi]

Sometimes a view from the outside looking in is helpful:

(this is based on what I've seen & read in various media + being married 9 years into a 1st-gen american Dutch family (in the 70's) + "knowing" the Dutchmen here)

I see the Dutch as hard-working, ambitious, yet modest people. Boasting, or even mentioning one's accomplishments is not only embarrassing, it's seen as downright rude. They love to laugh - especially the "head thrown back, lungs full of air" -type laugh. But they have a dark side too, and can be (briefly) gloomier than any stereotypical Russian in the dead of winter. A pragmatic people, things are what they are, and no more; flashy opulence is unnecessary, inefficient, and distasteful. They've almost perfected the "live and let live" philosophy, but don't back away from self-examination, the better to purge any ostentatious-ness that may have crept in. Artisans of "the fair deal", they constantly look for ways to broker win-win situations among people.

They make pretty good beer.

West Michigan (Holland) is filled with the Dutch you described. Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level (not to the point of inbreeding but they seem to like their own ) while business is another story altogether and it seems that everyone’s money is green!

[Fragony]

Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level (not to the point of inbreeding but they seem to like their own )

Hehehe you are not helping here you know

[Stig]

Our little Dutch communities are rather exclusive and separatist, choosing to integrate as little as possible on a personal level

Aye those are the real, die-hard Dutch (like Fragony)

Last year there was a documentary on TV, it was about Dutchmen going on holiday to their favourite location in Turkey, and liking it there. Do you know what it looked like? BLOODY AMSTERDAM. Yeah we go on holiday but we want to have Holland there too. Dutch food, Dutch language, Dutch everything ... you're on holiday for God's sake ... seriously sometimes I wonder why I still live here. Luckely I come from the border, in the west of the country they don't see me as a Dutchman, and I'm glad about it too, yeah ok I speak a dialect, but that doesn't mean you're superior to me, bloody Dutchmen, I almost hate them

[doc_bean]

Aye those are the real, die-hard Dutch (like Fragony)

Last year there was a documentary on TV, it was about Dutchmen going on holiday to their favourite location in Turkey, and liking it there. Do you know what it looked like? BLOODY AMSTERDAM. Yeah we go on holiday but we want to have Holland there too. Dutch food, Dutch language, Dutch everything ... you're on holiday for God's sake ... seriously sometimes

We have those places too :Benidorm is spain was pretty infamous. I don't know the names of any Turkish places but I know people who go there

[Fragony]

Awwww don't hate me Stig, fear will do just fine

[Bijo]

'bout the point of having a dominant culture I'd agree, but as already asked what is the culture to be dominant in here? The Dutch culture I know of is mainly about complaining, making money, living on emotions, being consumerist, improving your own situation, conflict, etc. And if that is true, then there are many countries that look alike with the same "culture" more or less.

The main culture is this: money. And the Netherlands are very good at it. One could argue about clogs, tulips, cheese and whatever, but when I think culture I think general behaviour of the people of a country. And what I've described above is what I've seen in cities overall. I've never been to any one-horse towns 'round here, and I don't wanna :P

Though, actually, I have some family living in one and have been there: white Dutch male who lost his "allochtone" wife by death and has two children, married to a Surinamese female who lost her husband by death and has grownup children. They are the only "foreign/etc." family living there in a quiet village where the Dutch people FEAR "strangers" and the likes (that basically means people who aren't white/Dutch). As soon as they see "allochtonen" 'tis as if they think their village's gonna be run over and turned into a city like Rotterdam or something.

But you know what I think? I don't really give one single flying fig about where somebody comes from (I wouldn't even mind if you're from Mars). This mentioned xenophobia is common with most people (in many forms), and it's not good. Look at the world and how it's been becoming more global all the time.
Nationalism (or any fitting variant) is something of the past though still in existence. What we have now is consumerism and globalization as this country is following in the footsteps of America (- the new empire reaching afar through commerce, consumerism, information warfare, espionage, fear, military warfare, general military presence, etc.).

And most likely the human race (in whatever time there's needed) will change regarding "race". I foresee a general beige colour (and possibly wars not about race, but about the same old thing: money/power.[/rant]


Seriously, Holland is one of the worst countries I've seen where people are discriminative and xenophobic, and the multicultural society is only multicultural because there are many cultures or even more accurate "different peoples" SEPARATE; not because they peacefully coexist. It's like what's been said in my Peace thread: we've come so far technologically, and globally to some extent, etc., but we humans are still the same in our behaviour and natures.

Eh, well... My head hurts, I'm gonna stop now :P

[Stig]

As soon as they see "allochtonen" 'tis as if they think their village's gonna be run over and turned into a city like Rotterdam or something.

I bet that's the same village as Wilders and Fragony come from

Nationalism (or any fitting variant) is something of the past though still in existence.

Not true, I'm as anti-Nationalistic as it can get, my normal opinion is: @#%$ Holland. But when you talk like that you will find out that there are enough nationalists left, I can't say why I should be proud of my country, but some people are actually proud of something they can do nothing with.

[Fragony]

I bet that's the same village as Wilders and Fragony come from

And I bet that wasn't very smart.

Seriously, Holland is one of the worst countries I've seen where people are discriminative and xenophobic, and the multicultural society is only multicultural because there are many cultures or even more accurate "different peoples" SEPARATE; not because they peacefully coexist.

That is true, I have been saying that here for years. It just doesn't exist. It could though, and it will have to, but we really ought to stop bullshitting eachother. The majority of the dutch youth have views that would make me look like Ghandi, and that majority is the next generation. We better wise up.

[Stig]

And I bet that wasn't very smart.

A joke m8, a joke .... I doubt the Wilders gang will now come to lynch me

[Fragony]

A joke m8, a joke ....

Sorry, my backroom temper

[doc_bean]

The main culture is this: money.

Well, you are a merchant nation.

[rory_20_uk]

There are in the world ocer 200 countries. Probably 250 although some are not recognised internationally.

If we do all love each other so much, and want to be one big amorphous mass, why then are these so many divisions, with as many countries fracturing as ones joining together?

I don't want to be French, Irish, Polish, French, Spanish, American, French, Chinese etc etc. I'm English.

Of course England has altered over time, but this has generally been from a slow melding of new ideas into the mainstream, not groups that don't have the slightest interest in bieng integrated. Probably this is because previously groups who came to the UK were similar in some way. Europeans share a shared history (we've been killing each other for so long, we're practicay family), then there were those from the Commonwealth. All have generally fitted in. Many carribeans are proud of how long they have been in the UK.

So, out of the 250 countries, surely one can fit everyone's idea off utopia.

[Stig]

Well, you are a merchant nation.

were Doc, we were ... there's nothing left of that old Holland, only what we want to believe

[Fragony]

were Doc, we were ... there's nothing left of that old Holland, only what we want to believe

Can't you see you are proving my point Stig? In that, how you see it, we are asking the muslims to integrate, into something we don't even value anymore ourselve.s Every ship needs a captain, and every captain needs a map, whatever the ethnical makeup of the crew. This culture of self-loathing, or rather the enforced culture of self-loathing, or the culture of not having a culture at all, it snatches centuries of developement, learning and experience right from under our noses, and all we get back in return is even more demands. Let's scale it back a bit, does Twente have a culture? You seem to advocate what sets you apart rather fiercely at times.

[rory_20_uk]

Can't you see you are proving my point Stig? In that, how you see it, we are asking the muslims to integrate, into something we don't even value anymore ourselve.s Every ship needs a captain, and every captain needs a map, whatever the ethnical makeup of the crew. This culture of self-loathing, or rather the enforced culture of self-loathing, or the culture of not having a culture at all, it snatches centuries of developement, learning and experience right from under our noses, and all we get back in return is even more demands. Let's scale it back a bit, does Twente have a culture? You seem to advocate what sets you apart rather fiercely at times.

Extremely good point. In the UK there are somemoves to teach some of our own gistory (gasp) and make people learn how the country has come about - and for this to be compulsary. I have thought that America goes too far in this direction, but of course they have to stamp the country on its people as it has been so dispirate so recently. But since ours are coming apart it is time that we followed suit. People used to stand for the National Anthem. Now no one bothers. As you say, without someone showing what the country stands for how can anyone identify with a poor mix of fluffy compromises? This in turn leaves Patriotism in the hands of the far right, further destroying a national identity.

[yesdachi]

Some Dutch guy just pulled up in a boat, called me “Large Lord” and offered to sell me guns.