Why do Seleukid Hetairoi not carry shields?

[MeinPanzer]

There is a large amount of evidence that indicates that Seleukid heavy cavalry carried shields, at least after the mid-3rd C. BC., yet this isn't reflected in the EB unit.

Also, in the unit description:

The successors kept this mold, but added mail reinforcement to the bronze armor at the joints before replacing it with iron and added felt and lamellar barding to the horses after encountering horse peoples that did the same.

Where does any of this information come from? And I'm also curious about the choice of barding for this unit. It looks extremely peculiar and unlike anything I've seen.

[Bonny]

There is a large amount of evidence that indicates that Seleukid heavy cavalry carried shields, at least after the mid-3rd C. BC., yet this isn't reflected in the EB unit.

I don't know the historical reason (there is one, which the eb historians may answer) but i know the RTW/Game engine Reason. The Heteiro is using the two handed Spear animation which causes clipping if you add a shild to the unit.

[QwertyMIDX]

Well pretty much all hellenistic cavarly that use a 2-handed kontos don;t use a shield. Both early Seleukid hetairoi and later seleukid heavy cavalry don't use one. This unit has to share a model with both Macedonian and Ptol Hetairoi.

So basically there's no real proof that I know of that all or even most Seleukid hetairoi after the mid 3rd century BC used shields (if you have some sources please post them), there's plenty of reason to think they didn't use shields, and the RTW core of EB nearly makes it a moot point anyway.

[MeinPanzer]

Well pretty much all hellenistic cavarly that use a 2-handed kontos don;t use a shield.

First of all, the hetairoi didn't use the kontos. Kataphraktoi would have, but hetairoi used the xyston, as is stated by Arrian among others. And they did carry shields. This is a coin from 2nd C. BC Kibyra:

Both early Seleukid hetairoi and later seleukid heavy cavalry don't use one. This unit has to share a model with both Macedonian and Ptol Hetairoi.

There is a huge amount of information showing that Antigonid hetairoi carried shields as well as the Seleukids. The Ptolemies seem to have been the only successor state to not have shield-carrying hetairoi.

So basically there's no real proof that I know of that all or even most Seleukid hetairoi after the mid 3rd century BC used shields (if you have some sources please post them), there's plenty of reason to think they didn't use shields, and the RTW core of EB nearly makes it a moot point anyway.

Okay, I have:

Several dozen (I think close to 50) funerary stelai from western Asia Minor, all dating to the 2nd C. BC, that show cavalrymen with almost uniform equipment: helmets, shields, linothorax, greaves, and sword (spears, of course, were wielded, but are not shown).

The above coin from Cibyra.

A 2nd C. BC cup from Syria showing some Parthian archers attacking heavy Greek cavalrymen carrying shields.

A cavalry shield (a round, rimless shield with a spindle and boss like a thureos) on the Pergamon weapon reliefs - a type of shield only ever carried by cavalry in the Hellenistic period.

Several dozen funerary reliefs from neighbouring Bithynia showing heavily armed cavalrymen wearing linothorax and helmet and shield and wielding sword and spear.

Mysian funerary stelai showing cavalry with shields.

Obviously I'm not going to post all of these but state which ones you'd like to see and I'll post them and sources.

[Tuuvi]

I am no archeologist or historian but I don't think that coins and other art are 100% accurate, because the artists don't try to make them accurate, they add changes to make the soldiers look more heroic or to add style into their art.

[MeinPanzer]

I am no archeologist or historian but I don't think that coins and other art are 100% accurate, because the artists don't try to make them accurate, they add changes to make the soldiers look more heroic or to add style into their art.

There's no reason to think that, in this case, this depiction is anything but accurate since this style of cavalryman is corroborated by many other different kinds of art. And even so, depictions on coins usually are quite accurate, but you generally have to judge it on a case by case basis.

[paullus]

Several dozen (I think close to 50) funerary stelai from western Asia Minor, all dating to the 2nd C. BC, that show cavalrymen with almost uniform equipment: helmets, shields, linothorax, greaves, and sword (spears, of course, were wielded, but are not shown).

Hmmm...I'm thinking of the stelai and reliefs I have pictures of from museums across Turkey, and while I can think of a few cavalrymen with shields, I'm not sure there's a strong reason to identify them with hetairoi, nor do they seem to outnumber those using a two-hand grip on their spears. Note that generic hippeis and other, down-the-pipe cavalry do carry either the aspis or a smaller round shield or a Thraikian thureos. Quite a few stelai don't feature shields though--and in this case I'm thinking of equipment-only stelai, even if they picture other elements of the panoply. I've got a series of photos I can post if necessary, but not now because its rather late and I'm teaching at church tomorrow. If you have photos, please show them. Swords, even axes, and elements of armor like helmet and linothorax/bronze cuirass and greaves are all well-represented, but I'm having trouble finding a shield in my collection.

The above coin from Cibyra.

A 2nd C. BC cup from Syria showing some Parthian archers attacking heavy Greek cavalrymen carrying shields.

First off, how do we know the Kibyra cavalryman is from the hetairoi?

Second, I'd love to see a 2nd bc cup from Syria of Parthian ANYTHING, especially archers, because as far as I know the only representations of Parthians show them looking more like Galatians than much of anything else.

A cavalry shield (a round, rimless shield with a spindle and boss like a thureos) on the Pergamon weapon reliefs - a type of shield only ever carried by cavalry in the Hellenistic period.

Aren't we using this shield in our Thraikian hippeis? I haven't actually gotten to play in a couple of weeks, so I could be wrong, but I thought that's what we were using. The only other place than the Pergamon reliefs where I've seen that shield is on Thraikian horsemen stelai (most of which have no shield, however) and the Pydna relief, which also probably depicts a Thraikian cavalryman.

Several dozen funerary reliefs from neighbouring Bithynia showing heavily armed cavalrymen wearing linothorax and helmet and shield and wielding sword and spear.

1. So are we talking about cavalrymen carrying shields or HETAIROI CARRYING SHIELDS? Because I challenge you to present the least evidence that there was a class anywhere near Hetairoi in the Bithynian kingdom.

2. I'm also EXCEEDINGLY skeptical about "several dozen funerary reliefs" of that topic. I've been to several sites in Bithynia and several museums containing artifacts from Bithynia, and have never seen as many as a dozen containing that sort of information, much less several dozen.

3. You've offered to post stelai. The ones I'd most like to see are some of these dozens from Bithynia, one or two of the asia minor stelai depicting a cavalryman with aspis...BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, this Syrian cup with the Parthians!

[MeinPanzer]

Hmmm...I'm thinking of the stelai and reliefs I have pictures of from museums across Turkey, and while I can think of a few cavalrymen with shields, I'm not sure there's a strong reason to identify them with hetairoi, nor do they seem to outnumber those using a two-hand grip on their spears.

I'd like to see some pictures of the ones holding their spears two-handed, because in my research I've found those to be particularly rare.

And this is my reasoning: Hetairoi were the aristocracy of the Hellenistic kingdoms, the king's friends, and were heavily armed to match their high status. Men who were able to afford lavish funerary reliefs, and maintaining their expensive arms and armour, were just these. Now, I can't think of a single image that is labels a Hellenistic cavalryman as being a hetairos, but I think it is a very fair assumption that these heavily armed cavalrymen were, if not hetairoi, their equivalent in surrounding city states and kingdoms. It is very evident that particular styles of troops were popular at certain times and in certain areas, and it's evident from these sources that the popular equipment of the heavy cavalryman in and around Asia Minor (one of the richest and most populated portions of the Seleukid empire in the latter years) at this time was helmet, linothorax, greaves, sword, large round shield (some Argive, some large round rimless shields with central boss/spines). Hetairoi were the heaviest-armed cavalrymen beneath the kataphraktoi, and so it makes sense that these heavy cavalrymen would at least be parallels of Seleukid hetairoi.

Note that generic hippeis and other, down-the-pipe cavalry do carry either the aspis or a smaller round shield or a Thraikian thureos. Quite a few stelai don't feature shields though--and in this case I'm thinking of equipment-only stelai, even if they picture other elements of the panoply.

That's true- it seems that in many cases the full panoply was abbreviated for the purposes of conserving space. However, the most common items shown are shields.

I've got a series of photos I can post if necessary, but not now because its rather late and I'm teaching at church tomorrow. If you have photos, please show them. Swords, even axes, and elements of armor like helmet and linothorax/bronze cuirass and greaves are all well-represented, but I'm having trouble finding a shield in my collection.

Posting them all would be time consuming... is it possible that if I contact you by email we could trade images? I'd like to see if I can find corroborate different stelai. As far as these stelai, I have some 38 scans, each one containing 1-6 individual stelai (and most contain at least 4).

First off, how do we know the Kibyra cavalryman is from the hetairoi?

See my explanation above.

Second, I'd love to see a 2nd bc cup from Syria of Parthian ANYTHING, especially archers, because as far as I know the only representations of Parthians show them looking more like Galatians than much of anything else.

Well, they are some sort of nomads. They have very Silen-like faces; Rostovtzeff doesn't explain who he thinks the figures are, but for the 2nd C. Syrian, the most likely enemy would be Parthian.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/cup.jpg

Upper left is one of the barbarians about to be ridden down by a Greek in the upper right. Lower left is a Greek chasing a barbarian horse archer. Some of the details are hard to make out, but Rostovtzeff acquired an admirable amount of information on it and writes a bit about the costume and look of the figures.

Aren't we using this shield in our Thraikian hippeis? I haven't actually gotten to play in a couple of weeks, so I could be wrong, but I thought that's what we were using. The only other place than the Pergamon reliefs where I've seen that shield is on Thraikian horsemen stelai (most of which have no shield, however) and the Pydna relief, which also probably depicts a Thraikian cavalryman.

Does it have laurels running around the edge? It's a fragment of the reliefs, not one on display and one that's rarely published AFAIK.

And is that a Thrakian stele where the horseman carries a round shield? Could you please post it? And no, the Pydna relief definitely depicts a Macedonian heavy cavalryman, and thus probably a hetairos as well.

1. So are we talking about cavalrymen carrying shields or HETAIROI CARRYING SHIELDS? Because I challenge you to present the least evidence that there was a class anywhere near Hetairoi in the Bithynian kingdom.

These I included to show an example that at this time a particular panoply was popular with the aristocratic cavalrymen of the Hellenistic kingdoms. It is documented that the Bithynian kings made a big effort to Hellenize themselves, and it is evident that they had very close contact with the Seleukids.

2. I'm also EXCEEDINGLY skeptical about "several dozen funerary reliefs" of that topic. I've been to several sites in Bithynia and several museums containing artifacts from Bithynia, and have never seen as many as a dozen containing that sort of information, much less several dozen.

15 really important ones, perhaps a dozen more relatively unimportant ones. There are some REALLY good ones too, like battle scenes with 4 or 5 figures, but I'm currently writing an article on the Bithynian army, so I promise I'll post the stuff (and the article) when I finish it (which should be fairly soon, I'm about 3/4 finished). The really good stuff is almost all in the Archaeological Museum Bursa, which has hundreds of stelai which are not on display, and apparently they've only published a fraction of the total number they have.

3. You've offered to post stelai. The ones I'd most like to see are some of these dozens from Bithynia, one or two of the asia minor stelai depicting a cavalryman with aspis...BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, this Syrian cup with the Parthians!

Again, if I contact you via email it would be easier to transfer many pictures.

[Fondor_Yards]

Well pretty much all hellenistic cavarly that use a 2-handed kontos don;t use a shield. Both early Seleukid hetairoi and later seleukid heavy cavalry don't use one. This unit has to share a model with both Macedonian and Ptol Hetairoi.

What if you shared the carthagian sacred band cavalry model with the seleucid hetairoi? They carry shields, and use the kontos as well.

[Bonny]

What if you shared the carthagian sacred band cavalry model with the seleucid hetairoi?

Not neccessary, you can put a shild to the existing Heteiro model if it may be decided to do so. (model change is not a good thing, The helm for example is part of the model)

They carry shields, and use the kontos as well.

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Note that generic hippeis and other, down-the-pipe cavalry do carry either the aspis or a smaller round shield or a Thraikian thureos. Quite a few stelai don't feature shields though--and in this case I'm thinking of equipment-only stelai, even if they picture other elements of the panoply.

That's true- it seems that in many cases the full panoply was abbreviated for the purposes of conserving space. However, the most common items shown are shields.

So when the stelai show shields they are correct and give us an accurate depiction, but when they don't show shields they are incorrect and don't give an accurate depiction? That seems fair.

[MeinPanzer]

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

The xyston was wielded in one hand.

So when the stelai show shields they are correct and give us an accurate depiction, but when they don't show shields they are incorrect and don't give an accurate depiction? That seems fair.

Here are my thoughts on it:

There are many, many stelai. All of the complete stelai show the same equipment; namely, helmet, cuirass, greaves, and shield. Sometimes, the incomplete panoply is shown, which usually is just a helmet and shield, but also includes any combination of these (sometimes greaves and helmet, shield and greaves, helmet and shield and greaves, etc.). Now, if you judge the body of stelai as a whole- all the stelai from the 2nd C. BC from western Asia Minor- it becomes very apparent that given the consistency in workmanship but given limited space, that it had been decided to limit the panoply to a few pieces. It's apparent that if the artist has shown only, say, greaves and a cuirass, that a cavalryman would obviously not go into battle wearing only greaves and a cuirass; therefore it's apparent that it was not uncommon for the equipment to be abbreviated for the purposes of these stelai.

[Fondor_Yards]

They are not using the Kontos (Kontos is afaik a sarmartian weapon), Hetairo are using the Xyston (regarding the Sauromatae Preview Thread the Kontos was developed after fighting against Xyston armed hellenic heavy Cav) and I don't know which weapon the Sacred band cavalry is using but it was decided to change the anim to a one handed grip, to avoid the clipping.

My bad, thought Kontos refered to all long two handed lancers from this time.

No Greek cavalry do not carry shields, but there is clear evidence for them doing so (most importantly, a handful of armour tokens found with cavalry records in a well in the Athenian agora that show helmets, greaves, shields, and cuirasses on them); none of the Macedonian cavalrymen carry shields, yet there are many funerary reliefs of Macedonian nobles showing cavalrymen carrying large round shields and wearing helmets and cuirasses.

Hippeis, Machimoi Hippeis, Hippakontistai, Hippeis Tarantinoi, Illyrioi Hippeis, and Baktrian Bodyguards, are all greek or under heavy greek influence/control and carry shields. It's not like no one uses cavalry shields.