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Thread: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

  1. #1

    Question Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    I wonder if the USA had never seen the USSR as a ideological and military enemy as suggested in NSC 68 would there have been a cold war. If there had been no Truman doctrine would we have been spared the war of nerves that resulted?
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    I am actually studying the Cold War right now, and I have to disagree. The cold war was more inveitable than anyone's fault. I guess that means it was both the USA's and the USSR's fault. Could I point out that without the Truman doctrine those countries would have been severly poor and many people would have died, and those nations would certainly have fallen to communism which would have become Soviet States. Pretty soon you have a massive Soviet web of control which would not have gone down well with the Americans or the West, and the risk of a nuclear war is just as great.
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    I would say that the Truman doctrine and the Marshall plan had the effect of creating a bipolar Europe increasing the tension further. Rather than defusing it i probably went a bit too far saying it was purely the USA i was just wondering if the USA's post war actions could be said to have provoked the conflict.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    The cold war was started by Soviet lust for power and was ended by America outspending them.
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    Guest Stig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Remember Churchill, wanting to invade Yugoslavia to stop Russia? No-one is to blame imo

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Perhaps, but it also would've really helped if Russia hadn't abused Yalta to putsch nation after nation in Eastern Europe.

    The Kuomintang losing the struggle for China to the commies there was also a factor; the U.S. and its allies started feeling more and more as if a so-called Red Tide was sweeping across the world.
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Mithradates

    “…and the Marshall plan had the effect of creating a bipolar Europe increasing the tension further.”

    I say rather Soviet (or perhaps more accurately Stalin's) rejection of the Marshall plan and the parallel orders to its Eastern European puppet governments to reject it as well created the bi-polar situation.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Equal fault. Both were major powers at the end of WWII, and would have perceived eachother as the natural enemy even if it weren't for the ideological friction.

    In the "western block", it was Churchill who however first realized the impending danger and not FDR or Truman however.

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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    I think the plan was formulated in the knowledge that the Soviets would reject purley as a matter of honour and if they did accept i find it unlikely that the US congress would pass such an act. I wouldnt say neither country is truly to blame what im trying to assertain is whether US actions post war led to the increase of tensions, more so than the Soviets.
    Last edited by Mithradates; 02-17-2007 at 12:16.
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    all american. Though i hate to say it(we all know america is usually innocent) we started the cold war because truman flashed A-bombs in front of stalin or what ever his name was but it was also englands fault to an extent. England wished for a strong germany to buffer russia should they ever decide to "spread" their influence. But 90% of the blame comes down upon truman and the post war confrence thingy. If all this seems like jumbled facts im sorry its 3 am and i cant sleep so i just write and write and write until i get tired enough to sleep
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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    I say Trotsky for not seeing Stalin for what he was and stopping him after the Russian Civil War...

    Or Germany for electing Hitler, and forcing America to build an A-bomb to finish off the enemy...

    Stalin for having the wacko ideas about Britain and USA trying to take over Europe...

    Or Marx for suggesting communism in the first place...

    It's a total blame game that won't get anywhere.
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    His higness, the Sultan Member Randarkmaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    It was everyone's fault and no one in particular's fault. When you dig into it, you will see that both the Soviets and the American are to blame and playing a blame game is pointless.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    Or Germany for electing Hitler, and forcing America to build an A-bomb to finish off the enemy...
    This is priceless...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Or Germany for electing Hitler, and forcing America to build an A-bomb to finish off the enemy...
    ahhhhahahahahahahahahaha very funny man

    ok so we have 49% nay and 51% yay its unanimous hitler wins!!
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    Gangrenous Member Justiciar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    They're both to blame. It was a cunning ploy to keep Europe seperate, and weak, so as to avoid the growth of a federal Europe, as was the intention of many politicians of the day.

    Alright, I'm talking out of my arse.

    Marshal means that the Nuclear stand off between the USA and USSR wouldn't have come about without the arrival of Nukes during WW2. Though without them I'd argue that a full-on war would have been inevitable.
    Last edited by Justiciar; 02-18-2007 at 01:43.
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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Hate to drag this a bit off topic, but better than starting a new thread.

    Any reccomended reading on the cold war/nuclear deterrant?
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Im surprised so many people are laying the blame equally at the feet of both nations.

    Surely the communist takeover of all the nations they "liberated" shifts most of the blame to the USSR?

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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Just as the formation of NATO was a threat to the USSR's established regime.

    Also, I never said Germany was unanimous in the vote, just that they voted Hitler in....


    Anyway, I think that both nations were equally responsible for the war.

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Established regime? The NATO was founded right after the USSR abused the fact that it still garissoned all the countries it had "liberated," and which the Yalta and Potsdam Conferences had kept in a (fragile, as we shall see) equilibrium in between Soviet troops and a wish of the locals to return to the pre-war status qup, to putsch all these places in favor of Moscow-aligned communist parties.

    Also, nobody has mentioned the fall of China to Mao and the CCP but me. This happened in 1949, just after (or perhaps contemporarily) the series of Soviet-engineered takeovers by communists in the East, contributing to the idea in American-controlled areas that a "red tide" was taking the world by storm.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    And the fact that the Soviets detonated their first nuclear bomb only a month or so before that, wich didn't go unnoticed by the Americans.
    Stalin's (quite predictable, Churchill knew at least) authoritarian occupation of eastern Europe was an essential for the Cold War. However, an act of covert agression against the other post-war allies? The drawing of NATO could instead be seen as a "pre-emptive strike" without the strike part.
    And for some west-block putsching, one needs only to look at Latin America, or before that Greece. Churchill's lashing out against Stalin's approach of handling the occupied territories makes him a hypocrite, or rather a shrewd politician, despite any other positive traits the man had.

    There is no way of pin-pointing the exact point where one faction started intimidating the other into competition, because that exact point doesn't exist.

    Note: just because I don't think there is a one, true agressor doesn't mean that I think both sides are morally on par. Of course it's a good thing that the USA got out on top.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
    Established regime? The NATO was founded right after the USSR abused the fact that it still garissoned all the countries it had "liberated," and which the Yalta and Potsdam Conferences had kept in a (fragile, as we shall see) equilibrium in between Soviet troops and a wish of the locals to return to the pre-war status qup, to putsch all these places in favor of Moscow-aligned communist parties.

    Also, nobody has mentioned the fall of China to Mao and the CCP but me. This happened in 1949, just after (or perhaps contemporarily) the series of Soviet-engineered takeovers by communists in the East, contributing to the idea in American-controlled areas that a "red tide" was taking the world by storm.
    And allies didn't garrison the countries they "liberated"? Germany, France? Had it not been the firm stance of De Gaulle, american troops would have been far longer in France... Do you think the germans saw the presence american troops as good? Prefered to the soviet troops, sure, but certainly not prefered to their own army. The actual need for the presence of american troops in western europe was lesser, because most of the countries were able to use their own, with financial help from the americans of course.

    Just how many countries in latin america were garrisoned by the americans? How many dictators were supported so that countries don't fall to communism? Do you think that the guy Castro replaced (I can't remember his name) was much better than him? Maybe a bit better, but he was a dictator just as Castro.

    As it had already been said, it takes 2 to tango...
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 02-19-2007 at 18:59.

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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    Do you think that the guy Castro replaced (I can't remember his name) was much better than him? Maybe a bit better, but he was a dictator just as Castro.

    As it had already been said, it takes 2 to tango...
    Batista. And he was worse then Castro AFAIK.

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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Its just ridiculos to try to put equal blame on the countries. USSR was an expansionistic dictatorship that cared nothing for the wellbeing of either its own population and certanly not of occupied countries which they tried to grab as many as possible. Did you see any revolts in western europe against US troops? Did you see any revolts in eastern europe? (thats a clue to whos presence was wanted and whos precence was in fact an occupation) If you cant see a diffrence in USAs acting towards western europe and USSRs in the east its gotta be because you dont want to.

    It takes 2 to tango yes but only one to start the dance.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Anybody remember that wall maybe? People fled from East to West, not the other way round. It takes two to tango, but it takes a totalitarian regime to murder it's own citizens when they desperately seek freedom

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A thousand crosses, next to a part of the wall. One cross for each person who was murdered for trying to escape the blessings of communism.

    This is what the Soviet troops did in the part of Europe they conquered. The other half of Europe was spared this cruel fate by the presence of American troops.


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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Hilarious. Since when is the behaviour during a conflict of any relevance to the question of wich party started the conflict?
    The regimes in eastern Europe were horrorible. Eastern Europe, and especially the Baltic countries were the backyard of the USSR and they wanted a buffer against the capitalist west. That's perfectly rational.
    OTOH, South America was the backyard of the USA. Democracy is nice, but it was secondary to anti-communism, admittedly also perfectly rational

    On a lighter note, anybody else seen Goodbye Lenin?

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    Member Member Kalle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Pathetic!

    Maybe the oppressing puppet regimes in easterneurope were the key to the start of the cold war? I fail completly to see how rebuilding a democratic western europe could be seen as provocative by any one with peace and freedom in mind. Who built walls? Who shot people trying to get to the other side. Who forced airbridges to be made to Berlin?

    Churchill was the first to use the phrase iron curtain (at least in the sence of post wwii europe) but the curtain was not made by him or the westernpowers.

    Westernpowers let the countries they rid of germans become free democracies that could elect even communistregimes if they wanted and could tell US forces to leave if they wanted, was this so in eastern europe? I dont think so. USSR was expansionistic which they proved again and again both before the attack on them by Germany and after.

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    And allies didn't garrison the countries they "liberated"? Germany, France? Had it not been the firm stance of De Gaulle, american troops would have been far longer in France... Do you think the germans saw the presence american troops as good? Prefered to the soviet troops, sure, but certainly not prefered to their own army. The actual need for the presence of american troops in western europe was lesser, because most of the countries were able to use their own, with financial help from the americans of course.
    The Yalta and Potsdam conferences promoted a status quo similar to the one existing before the war... of the later two parties that took part in the Cold War, only the Soviet Union drastically altered this equilibrium by installing loyal puppet governments everywhere its troops happened to be stationed.

    Now, one could, perhaps (and difficultly) argue that the Marshall Plan was a parallel move carried out by the United States, but even if you'd choose for such a direction of argumentation, you cannot deny that that was a significantly lesser provocation than the outright colonization of half a continent.

    Just how many countries in latin america were garrisoned by the americans? How many dictators were supported so that countries don't fall to communism? Do you think that the guy Castro replaced (I can't remember his name) was much better than him? Maybe a bit better, but he was a dictator just as Castro.

    As it had already been said, it takes 2 to tango...
    And, tell me -- where was the Cold War fought out? Who were the main players, and where were they located? Besides, what you name are all later examples... we're talking the origins of the conflict. They lie in Europe alone.

    There's a reason there's a North-South contrast on the globe. One of the luxuries of being in the North is that you can wave around expensive and flashy weaponry at each other, either using it or just using it for the old proverbial saber-rattle.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 02-19-2007 at 22:10.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    Its just ridiculos to try to put equal blame on the countries. USSR was an expansionistic dictatorship that cared nothing for the wellbeing of either its own population and certanly not of occupied countries which they tried to grab as many as possible. Did you see any revolts in western europe against US troops? Did you see any revolts in eastern europe? (thats a clue to whos presence was wanted and whos precence was in fact an occupation) If you cant see a diffrence in USAs acting towards western europe and USSRs in the east its gotta be because you dont want to.

    It takes 2 to tango yes but only one to start the dance.

    Kalle
    Well, I've seen open revolts against american puppet regimes in latin america. Cuba, to name one. I am not saying CCCP rule was benevolent, but in the end, both parties wanted the same, they just used different means.

    Also, if we talk about expansionist regimes, just look at the number of countries US had their troops in, in let's say 1945, just after WW2 and compare it to the number of countries US have there troops stationed in 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
    The Yalta and Potsdam conferences promoted a status quo similar to the one existing before the war... of the later two parties that took part in the Cold War, only the Soviet Union drastically altered this equilibrium by installing loyal puppet governments everywhere its troops happened to be stationed.

    Now, one could, perhaps (and difficultly) argue that the Marshall Plan was a parallel move carried out by the United States, but even if you'd choose for such a direction of argumentation, you cannot deny that that was a significantly lesser provocation than the outright colonization of half a continent.
    AFAIK, in Yalta sphere of influnced were divided. There were some grey spots, but the general look of the world was decided. I am not sure what were you trying to say.

    And it is not true that soviets installed puppet regimes in every country they liberated. Soviet troops were in Yugoslavia, but they left because Yugoslavia was supposed to be under british sphere of influence, according to Yalta deal. Even though Yugoslavia was a comunist country. The same with Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
    And, tell me -- where was the Cold War fought out? Who were the main players, and where were they located? Besides, what you name are all later examples... we're talking the origins of the conflict. They lie in Europe alone.
    The cold war was fought all over the world. Europe was just the most important claim. It was also most sensitive. Every thing in the world was connected to the cold war at that point. Even Non-Aligned Movement, which was supposedly been formed for the exact opposite.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 02-19-2007 at 23:17.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    Maybe the oppressing puppet regimes in easterneurope were the key to the start of the cold war?
    The Soviets wanted a nice land buffer against whatever might come out of Europe. Ruthless, but understandable. They still had fresh memories of European intervention in their own civil war, and the invasion of 1942 by Germany and it's assorted allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    I fail completly to see how rebuilding a democratic western europe could be seen as provocative by any one with peace and freedom in mind. Who built walls?
    You don't need to try to see merit in arguments I never made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    Who shot people trying to get to the other side. Who forced airbridges to be made to Berlin?
    IIRC that incident was because the other Allied powers, without consulting the Soviets, decided to reunify their occupied parts of Germany and introduce a common Mark again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    Churchill was the first to use the phrase iron curtain (at least in the sence of post wwii europe) but the curtain was not made by him or the westernpowers.
    No, but they were simultaniously supporting fascist factions in the Greek civil war, wich would ban communist parties when they won a few years later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle
    Westernpowers let the countries they rid of germans become free democracies that could elect even communistregimes if they wanted and could tell US forces to leave if they wanted,
    You're a fool. The Western European countries weren't kept on a leash because the US knew we could be trusted, not in the last place because we owed them for first liberating us and then the Marshall plan. Maybe you need to do a search for "that other 9/11".

    I've already said that the Soviet occupation and vassalization of eastern Europe was essential for the Cold War, but it was more or less the "natural" thing to do. If you want to use that to put the blame on that party, fair enough. I view it more as logical events resulting from enertia. Regardless, the US did the same later on, though more subtly and on a somewhat lesser scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
    And, tell me -- where was the Cold War fought out?
    Mainly in Europe, Asia and Latin America- though the higher stakes were in Europe.

  30. #30
    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was the USA Responsible for the Cold War?

    USSR was an expansionistic dictatorship that cared nothing for the wellbeing of either its own population and certanly not of occupied countries which they tried to grab as many as possible.
    Do you believe that the US fought the Cold War to protect the people of Czechoslovakia? We wanted power, they wanted power. The cold war was a schoolyard fight. Both sides kept upping the ante but tried not to do anything that would get them in trouble.

    The question is not one of morality of the regime. But if you want to have that argument go pick up Eduardo Galeano's Century of the Wind and start reading. During the Cold War the US supported brutal regimes in Argentina, Chile, Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Panama, Colombia, Grenada, Haiti, the Dominican Republic. Hundreds of thousands of people were disappeared by the security services of those nations, and those security services were trained and funded by the CIA to fight communism.
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