Is this the worst out of the Total War series?

[Martok]

I wouldn't have a problem with that if CA had been up front about the change of direction. I called it a "new vision" back in Sept 2005, and MikeB was quick to jump on that and deny it. CA apparently wanted the Total War veterans to purchase the game, and that's why the shift to RTS style gameplay was downplayed. Now they are still pushing that same line about making M2TW appeal to veterans, and yet the gameplay is still RTS. Most of the Total War veterans I know don't want RTS gameplay.

Well said as always, Puzz.

Unfortunately, my then-roommate and I were two of those veterans suckered into purchasing Rome, not realizing just how fundamentally the gameplay had changed from Shogun and Medieval. While my friend and I take full responsibility for our own foolishness -- it's not like we couldn't have seen the new direction the TW series was taking had we not deluded ourselves -- I agree it would have been awfully nice if CA had simply told us what they were actually intending. Yes, we might have felt abandoned, but better that than both abandoned *and* betrayed/lied to. I realize I'm probably being a little melodramatic in saying that, yet I do feel it accurately reflects the feelings many of us had when Rome was released. We were hoodwinked, and bitterness over it still lingers, even two years later.

For as much as Medieval is my favorite of the TW games (I confess I'm a sucker for the time period), I can't deny the truth about it being inferior to Shogun in a number of ways. Whether you're referring to the AI, unit balance, atmosphere, etc., STW will probably forever remain the overall best out of the series.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I suppose now CA has gone to the RTS format, which although I like, I came to the TW seiries from RTS, nothing will cause them to return to the classic style.

I agree with you Martok, although I have not played S:TW, that M:TW style system were much better than the new R:TW one. I cannot speak from the side of veterans, I have only being playing the TW series for a year now, yet I agree with most of what you guys have said - the TW seiries did go for flashy graphics over gameplay, yet that appeals to the younger audience and drastically increased the popularity of the seiries henceforth getting more cash and revenue from the game - I can understand their resoning for doing that, most prefer action over tactics - some, such as I, don't - in my opinion, although nice graphics are good, they never can possibly make a game what it is. What would be nice to see would be a sort of M2:TW/M:TW hybrid with the wonderful battle system of M:TW fused together with the graphics of M2:TW. That dream of mine, however, will probably never become a reality.

[caravel]

Puzz3D has said it all.

RTW as a game failed the TW veterans in three main areas IMHO.

Firstly, and some might say most importantly, it failed those that were anticipating cutting edge AI improvements both on the campaign map and in the battles themselves.

The second failue was the campaign map design, vaunted by many as a significant improvement. It's only an improvement if you like those kind of games. The people that love it are also playing Civ4 or something similar, this is why. Personally I deset RTS basebuilding and Civ type games. For me such a game is nothing short of a nightmare. I even prefer role playing games such as Baldurs Gate or FPS games to those. Players like myself whom had grown very accustomed to the risk map felt let down by the new RTW map that all the appearances of a sell out to the RTS consumerbase. Instead of defining it's own genre it appeared as though RTW was trying to be TW, Civ, AoE and others all at once, but failing to be any of them. The decisiveness of the risk map was it's greatest merit. You would drop your stack into a province, end the turn and fight the battle, or not fight it. No messing about, no micromanagement. That was how it worked. There was no sneaking about, crossing borders, bumping into rebels, no fog of war no fancy animations and it worked perfectly. The risk map simply needed more refinement. More importantly it was a model that Programmed Opponent can work with, the RTW simply is not. When the typical RTW players are asked about how the map could be improved they often cite "real time" as their most preferred improvement. This says it all. RTW captured a different market and brought in alot of RTS players. Their wants will now dominate what CA produces in the future. Because these type of players know nothing of strategy and only want to point and cli-cli-cli-click, AI will never improve because there's no need to improve it.

The third failure, which I don't need to go into any detail about, is the battles. This is partly AI also, though also a balancing and general design problem. So obsessed with getting 3D men onto the field, so intent on the player being able to zoom in and look at these 3D men, and so focused on the visuals... what happened to the battles? Well alot of people think they're great. I suppose some people just like to ram some poor generic looking sods with their cavalry and see them shoot in all directions. Maybe it's not challenge they seek, but effect? So long as it looks good it must be ok? Motorcycle Cavalry that move like a flock of swans... Gah...

This, and the fact that my graphics card belongs in a museum, is mainly why I don't bother with RTW. Even modded it still annoys me.

Ok Martok, walking sticks at the ready, form a phalanx...

[Martok]

Ok Martok, walking sticks at the ready, form a phalanx...

Sure thing! Just give me a moment while I switch over to full-on grumping old man mode....

[Tony Furze]

Having managed to get RTW to work decently enough to play it long enough to say something: I just dont go back to it. I dont feel like playing it.

MTW is my favourite because the mix is right-just right.

The only and only reason I dont go to Shogun more often is-wait for it - (you ll love this , Martok and Caravel ) the little guys are too, too, too small and my aging eyesight is too weak!!!! So basically its my problem.

If Shogun could be released exactly as it is but with an MTW camera and unit figure size, I d be at it day and night.

[caravel]

This looks to be a great mod that I haven't played as yet. Take a look.

[Tony Furze]

-OO- Thanks

[Puzz3D]

If Shogun could be released exactly as it is but with an MTW camera and unit figure size, I d be at it day and night.

Samurai Wars: MTW camera, MTW unit size, MTW diplomacy and strategy enhancements, Shogun units, Shogun strategy map, Shogun battle maps, more clans, no four seasons, no Shogun weather effects.

[econ21]

Just to inject a contrary note: I think STW was the worst in the series; certainly it is the TW game I've had the longest but spent the least time playing. I take the points about the MP battles, but I've never played one so that's not a factor for me.

For a SP campaign, STW had the best atmosphere - both on the campaign map and on some of the glorious battle maps (Shinano! the weather, the fog, the music, the ambushes etc). It also had the most challenging competition from the AI. It's rather hard to lose a later TW game; rather easy for me to lose STW (the Hojo horde will often stomp me at the end).

But as a sandbox, STW was the least interesting to play in. The unit variety, the faction variety, the strategic possibilities were all greatly reduced compared to MTW. All TW games suffer, IMO, from being a little too focused on repetitive battles (yes, I know it says "Total War" on the tin, so I can't complain but it does get exhausting). I can replay the STW campaign about half a dozen times, but once I'd run through the factions, there was less to keep my attention.

MTW greatly improved the SP campaign - you were not compelled to salami slice up Japan, but could zap around a full map of Europe, crusading, facing down Mongols etc. There was at least more pretence of diplomacy and something other than total conquest with the glorious achievements. These aspects meant that MTW spurred the creation of fascinating "succession" PBM games in the Throne Room. STW has not spawned one - the SP game just does not lend itself to role-playing, story-telling or cooperative play.

RTW maybe the worst out of the box for some of the reasons given by other posters, but has been completely redeemed by the mods. Variants like RTR and EB make it a better historical strategy game than MTW. The innovation of the campaign map is crucial here - tastes vary, but for me, an abstract "Risk-style" map does not provide the immersion and feel of military campaigning. The detail of the unit graphics is another factor. It's surely no coincidence than RTW has attracted vastly more modders input than earlier engines. I don't think it's that the game is in more need of total conversion mods (although that is true) - it's that it is a better platform for them. The battle AI even in the mods, is still less challenging than in earlier games, it is true. But this is offset by the gloriously rendered detail and battle experiences that very closely resemble those of MTW. If you stranded me on a desert island, I'd rather have EB or RTR than MTW or STW.

M2TW is like the implications of the French revolution - too early to tell. The AI seems to have regained some of its MTW bite, in both the battles and the campaign. The game seems as rich, if not richer, in features than MTW (the faction rosters are more unique). The battles are better paced than RTW, although balancing awaits the next patch. I suspect it may be the best game of the series, at least if CA gives modders the tools to do a full conversion (AFAIK, they still can't edit the unit graphics).

[Krasturak]

Motorcycle Cavalry that move like a flock of swans... Gah...

*opens coffin*

*creeps out of coffin*

Gah! Krast agrees! Gah!

... but then again, Krast *mostly* does agree.

Except when he's hungry.

/OOC

So, having tried the STW, STW/MI, MTW, MTW/VI and RTW, it is clear to this game player that the original STW was the best game experience.

Not the best visuals. Not the best sieges. Not the best flying motorcycles.

But certainly the most interesting and exciting puzzle, to figure out how to command the 16-unit army (play chess, anyone?), to set up flexible armies, to get online and face off against other players ....

It's maybe hard to nail it down, but the original STW brought out more of the personality of the players in the way they fought their armies. Something instinctive was possible, even not knowing any of the numbers behind the game mechanics. The companies of soldiers were worth something and moved with graceful purpose.

MTW was too technical for this to happen. You could win by knowing which of the 100 units to select from its overbalanced attributes. You could win with the same army over and again, regardless of terrain. Even the most glorious cavalry charge was missing grace. It was a technical maneuver, the timing didn't seem to matter, the outcome was decided when you made the unit purchase before starting the battle.

I wanted MTW to be good, to be better than STW. And in some small ways it was, but overall it fell short. I tried to make this work for myself, but it didn't last. The game couldn't support my needs.

Before I bought STW, I saw an add for it. I thought it was one of the RTS-style games, and didn't expect to try it. RTS was never my bag. When I discovered the idea of STW, I got excited and the rest was history. In RTW I discovered everything I feared about the Totalwar series. In exchange for the 3d models, I got nothing I wanted. Gameplay wasn't just ho-hum, but actually horrid. The strategy game side obviously learned nothing from decades of development in comparable board games such as "Republic of Rome".

And to dream, how it might have been ....

Well, there it is.

/OOC

Gnish! Gnash! Gni!

*waves axe*

*creeps back into coffin*

Gah!

*closes coffin*

[Drisos]

Hey Krast!

You could win by knowing which of the 100 units to select from its overbalanced attributes. You could win with the same army over and again, regardless of terrain.

To this day I still never tried MTW well enough to speak of it.. but the words above fit to my vision on RTW as well.. though I didn't play online much, people brought the samen factions, same armies, etc.. no variation at all. No significant terrain or weather stuff. It's simply boring. And I've not even mentioned the presence of waaay too many waaaay to annoying/childish people in the foyer.

Before I bought STW, I saw an add for it. I thought it was one of the RTS-style games, and didn't expect to try it. RTS was never my bag. When I discovered the idea of STW, I got excited and the rest was history.

Also recognizable! I never liked the turn-baser strategy stuff.. I only liked cossacks, age of empires, etc. Yet, STW did it for me. By far my favourite. There's way more time to think, etc, because of the turn system.

Btw, have you heard of Samurai Wars, or considered trying it? (mod for MTW:VI, with an MP crowd.)

[TosaInu]

Hello Krasturak.