Cav vs Inf

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Hi,

I made a video. It is too short, because I have only a shareware fraps version, but you can see a charge against valour 3 infantery (heavy swords!) The cav kills also the other Inf:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=a2v994uEYfk

I tried the strength of the cav and It can't be. One cav can beat 2! valour 3 ! inf. maybe also 3. Why should I still use inf, if cav can kill all infantery? This is very annoying. The balance isn't okay.

Cav should be used to flank the enemy if they attack frontal, they cannot destroy 2 heavy sword units. This wasn't possible in mtw1. a good flank made the enemy routing, but it doesn't destroyed one FULL strong unit.

[Paolai]

I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72477

sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.

Yes, i cannot count like the infantery get killed. 60 30 0

sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!

Yes, weaker. At the moment, I don't want to play the game. With this cav charge, the game makes no sense.

[CeltiberoMordred]

It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.

Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.

Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).

This is annoying as well, but the CAV charge kills every INF unit to zero. That is unplayable. And valour makes no differents. Cannot be. After some games I can say the fatigue is also too less.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Fatigue impact is too low compared to MTW running and fighting. Going uphill is very severe with infantry, though. Desert makes no effect in heavy armoured units. Troops with plate mail in summer+desert keep fresh for ages. Light troops tire faster than heavy units in desert because they are not "hardy". But this is another thread...

[akinkhoo]

well, i think there is nothing wrong with having powerful heavy cavalry... they were the tank of the past, but i think they are far too cheap compare to infantry.

the heavy cavalry are only slightly more expensive than their foot counterpart and that is just illogical because you need to breed, groom, feed and house the warhorses; only the very wealthy could afford keeping 1000 of warhorses. i think if the cost of horses are raise, it will force players to adopt a more balance force.

as for the charge, i think they turn all the heavy cavalry into lancer-like units. they could have made them more specialize; their stat are almost all the same, making it fairly borring.

i don't want them to raise or lower the charge, but rather i hope they make the spearman more powerful instead, and the peasant shouldn't be able to kick they butt either! :P

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

well, i think there is nothing wrong with having powerful heavy cavalry... they were the tank of the past, but i think they are far too cheap compare to infantry.

the heavy cavalry are only slightly more expensive than their foot counterpart and that is just illogical because you need to breed, groom, feed and house the warhorses; only the very wealthy could afford keeping 1000 of warhorses. i think if the cost of horses are raise, it will force players to adopt a more balance force.

as for the charge, i think they turn all the heavy cavalry into lancer-like units. they could have made them more specialize; their stat are almost all the same, making it fairly borring.

i don't want them to raise or lower the charge, but rather i hope they make the spearman more powerful instead, and the peasant shouldn't be able to kick they butt either! :P

No No. It cannot be that after one second a unit is killed. That kills the MP mode. It doesn't matter, how much this cav cost. They must balance the game. Swords and spears must win, if cav attack the front side. It cannot be that they kill 60 swords in 1 second. This is crap. WHere is the tactic?? If I made a mistake, i cannot try to help my unit. It is lost in one second. Very annoying. And spears. pfff. THey must stay to be effective. But which vet attacks spears with cav head on?? I agree with you that the spears have also to win against cav, but Sword must win too. Only back or side flanks by cav should be effective. But please no 20 or 30 kills. Thats too much. CA play MTW Vi. There it is ok.

At the moment it is totally imbalanced. It is an action game. Click fast, dont think, no need to flank. boooooooooooooring.

[RTKMercurius]

The fact that more than a dozen units are bugged to make them unable to attack cav is more a problem than the relative strength of the cav....

[Kronos]

No No. It cannot be that after one second a unit is killed. That kills the MP mode. It doesn't matter, how much this cav cost. They must balance the game. Swords and spears must win, if cav attack the front side. It cannot be that they kill 60 swords in 1 second. This is crap. WHere is the tactic?? If I made a mistake, i cannot try to help my unit. It is lost in one second. Very annoying. And spears. pfff. THey must stay to be effective. But which vet attacks spears with cav head on?? I agree with you that the spears have also to win against cav, but Sword must win too. Only back or side flanks by cav should be effective. But please no 20 or 30 kills. Thats too much. CA play MTW Vi. There it is ok.

At the moment it is totally imbalanced. It is an action game. Click fast, dont think, no need to flank. boooooooooooooring.

Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered as the only advantage cav would have would be manouvreability to flank which would be taken away in tha circumstance.

atm if you were to really try your "click fast, don't think, no need to flank" *tactic* you'd get absolutely slaughtered as flanking is still one of the main ways to win. unless ofc your playing someone that doesn't know how to play in which case one could destroy their entire army frontally with 6-8 heavy cav (which btw i've actually done in a 2v2 and destroyed both opponents almost singlehandedly as they were unfamiliar how to counter mass cav) which is easily beatable in a multitude of ways.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered

FALSE. Cav has one BIG advantage. It is fast or faster than sword or spears. Swords should win against every unit in 1vs1. But Cav can move fast around the line and can FLANK the enemy. There are not a strong unit in fighting 1vs1, they are FASTER than the others. They go to the FLANK or BACK and make the enemy FEAR and ROUT the enemy. That are the orders of cav. And NOT to kill 60 MEN in 1 SECOND. AND i BET, that isn't a FEATURE, it is laziness to make it right. Since RTW they are NOT be able to make it RIGHT.

But the "new" CA hasn't ever played MTW Vi or they should know it

If i find the time, I will record a MTW Vi battle to show you and CA/Sega what I mean.

[Cheetah]

But the "new" CA hasn't ever played MTW Vi or they should know it

Palamedes started to play MTW well before VI came out. By that time he was a competent tourney player and during VI he was part of a team that was undefeated in the prime MTW/VI tourney vs the best clans.

If i find the time, I will record a MTW Vi battle to show you and CA/Sega what I mean.

I am sure Palamedes still has his replays but thx the offer. On the other hand I can send you MTW/VI replays with Pala playing, if you are interested.

[Puzz3D]

Well If it was really like that then cav would become pointless as a big box of inf with archers in the middle would be a good tactic as cav couldn't get in to flank at all, which in turn would make it seriously unbalanced as the factions with the best inf/ arch wouldf be overpowered as the only advantage cav would have would be manouvreability to flank which would be taken away in tha circumstance.

The box should be defeatable by shooting into it. If a faction has been given spears and shooters that are so good that the box can't be defeated that way, then the faction hasn't been properly balanced. Every tactic should have an effective counter tactic, and every unit an effective counter unit. That's what is meant by balance.

[Orda Khan]

The box should be defeatable by shooting into it.

It is, by simply switching FAW off and targeting the backs of units after you have either killed or decimated the archers.
The cav charge strength seems random to me, whether it is formed or not. It just appears buggy and I don't think the patch has addressed this or many other MP issues

......Orda

[Kronos]

The box should be defeatable by shooting into it. If a faction has been given spears and shooters that are so good that the box can't be defeated that way, then the faction hasn't been properly balanced. Every tactic should have an effective counter tactic, and every unit an effective counter unit. That's what is meant by balance.

Not if the person in the box has 8 arch and 12 inf as they don't have to worry about buying their own cav. So they'll have a severe numerical advantage even with equal inf/arch stats and price wise if cav didn't do anything much then u couldn't beat that against a good player. Also if the faction hasn't been properly balanced for cav being weak then the factions will become even more cloned and similar than they are now.

Thats just one tactic that if your weakened state of cav was implemented, would be able to decimate a *balanced* army.

BTW atm i've found a counter unit/units for every other unit except one, however that one unit can be easily beaten by basic tactics as a whole army.