game balance

[kalkwerk]

Ok Ive been playing the romans and this are my suggestions about game balance/factions balance. Playing with BI.exe VH/VH.

1. Carthage is very strong and this is good. But they fight a lot of desert wars with the Ptolamaics and that should be avoided. Why dont you make those desert regions unpassable for land forces like in RTR PE? That would fix the problem.
2. Bactrians are way overpowered.
3. In my opinion the seleucidains and the ptolemaic kingdom are both too strong. One of them is gonna nerve the other and then be a superpower. Maybe make some more rebel armies inside their empires at the start?
4. Id like Parthia to be stronger on the cost of Bactria.
5. The other factions are all okay, but Id still want to see hellenistic factions expanding direction Asia minor instead of Balkan/Eastern Europe. Maybe you can put up greek/macedonian/epirote spies in Asia minor at the start?
6. Other factions are ok.
7. I dont really figure out wether the ship building limits are due to game balance or historical reasons. If its meant to be historical, Tarentum should be able to build some ships as the romans did so in the 1st punic war. But on the other hand the naval warfare was funcioning in my game, so if its game balance reasons its okay now.
8. Id suggest that not all cities can be huge. This may limit the economy of the superpowers in a reasonable way.
9. Id also suggest that some technologies (huge temples, arenas) are bein made more expensive, but know there may be problems if the AI doesnt build them then.
10. Mines are a bit too profitable and there are a few too many. I like that those spain mines give huge profits for historical reasons. But Sardinia 10000?
Maybe 7-8000 is more reasonable for mining complexes. Give parts of spain uniqe mines maybe.

I do know that all campaigns are different. Still I think that the suggestions above will be relevant in most cases.

Regards Kalkwerk

[Bonny]

1. Carthage is very strong and this is good. But they fight a lot of desert wars with the Ptolamaics and that should be avoided. Why dont you make those desert regions unpassable for land forces like in RTR PE? That would fix the problem.

afaik they fight at the coastline and not in the desert

2. Bactrians are way overpowered.

We willl see what the what the enhanced steppe factions do to them

4. Id like Parthia to be stronger on the cost of Bactria.

You haven't fought against theire new 0.80 Bodyguard unit, have you? they are killers

6. Other factions are ok.

8. Id suggest that not all cities can be huge. This may limit the economy of the superpowers in a reasonable way.

hardcoded

9. Id also suggest that some technologies (huge temples, arenas) are bein made more expensive, but know there may be problems if the AI doesnt build them then.

i don't think that the ai has problems with that

10. Mines are a bit too profitable and there are a few too many. I like that those spain mines give huge profits for historical reasons. But Sardinia 10000?
Maybe 7-8000 is more reasonable for mining complexes. Give parts of spain uniqe mines maybe.

mines are going to be nerfed in the upcoming patch
(10000 is not the amount of mnai mines give you, look at the settlement details and there in the trade details, there you will see the real amount. The 10000 is only a number the engine needs to calculate the income)

[Danest]

The Ptolemies didn't expand into the Seleucid empire in real history, is that right? What happened in history to keep them from snapping up this collapsing empire, or from conquering or being conquered by Carthage? (all of which seems to have a high probability of happening in the game).

[Watchman]

The answer to the latter doubtless has much to do with the vast stretch of desolate Libyan desert in the way, and both being busy with other stuff.

[Krusader]

The Ptolemies didn't expand into the Seleucid empire in real history, is that right? What happened in history to keep them from snapping up this collapsing empire, or from conquering or being conquered by Carthage? (all of which seems to have a high probability of happening in the game).

The Ptolemaic military went in to decline before the Seleukid one and when the Seleukid empire did begin to collapse, the Ptolemies had enough internal troubles to keep them occupied from invading the Seleukids.
As for Carthage, as Watchman says the terrain between the lands was not so favourable, however there also seems to have been a friendly relationship between the two empires.

[Lovejoy]

hardcoded

I'm pretty sure Metropolis for RTR does that. They make it VERY hard to get the biggest town in some settlements at least I believe. Which I like tons.

[Eminos]

I´ll have to say that it will get interesting to see if the steppe factions will do any damage to the Baktrians. Personally I really hope so, since in all four of my campaigns (v. 0.80) the Baktrians have managed to qualify as a member of the "superpowers". Maybe its a coincidence, and maybe I need some more campaigns "in the bag" to be sure that this is a real problem. However, if it so, then I think that the very fact that I never heard of any Baktrian Empire of the same caliber as the Roman and Seleucid empires is enough for me to think that there is something wrong with the balance in the game.
The other thing I want to comment is the following. If hardcode is the reason why one can't limit some factions economy via city size, it must still be possible to restrict their income through the script. As I have understood it, all computer controlled factions cheat via the script. I haven't looked closely into the matter, but doesn't all factions get the same amount of cheat money every time they go below a certain "threshold"? If so, maybe that opens up a possibility. By simply not treating all factions in a "democratic" way the amount of cheat money could be adjusted depending on faction.
I realize that I sound quite negative in this reply. That wasn't my intention. I just love this game, but at the same time I want every faction to be fun to play, and then the balance of the game comes to mind.

[Orb]

The Baktrians are way overpowered?
And you're playing as the Romani, yes?

I haven't seen much of the expansion variants in 0.8, mainly because I'm only on my second real campaign (the first was more of a taster, then I found out the Dacians were getting a few more units for 0.81 so I dropped it) but EB has a lot more variety of results than vanilla (Check out the KH AAR in the gameplay guides section for some really interesting situations). It may look like one of them is destined to become a superpower but really any faction can do well).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Parthians still have a major change to undergo. A huge one. Nomads will be stronger in 0.81, but we have more units of theirs to work on, and eventually we will be tweaking them to the point that they do give Baktria a lot more trouble.

[QwertyMIDX]

It is relevant to note that the Baktrian Kingdom was very large, very wealthy, and very powerful at its hieght. Controlling not only the heartland of Bactria, but all of what is modern Afghanistan, Pakistan, and North Western Indian. It is a more a lack of textual sources than anything that keeps bakria from being remebered as a mighty empire.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

First of all, I hate Baktria.
Second, mines are way down in the future.
Third, for all my own versions of every mod I play, I limit the size most cities can become. Making only major cities able to become a large_city and only Rome, Athens, and Alexandria (maybe Seleucia?) to become a huge_city. It is quite easy and only requires a change to two files.

[Fondor_Yards]

Third, for all my own versions of every mod I play, I limit the size most cities can become. Making only major cities able to become a large_city and only Rome, Athens, and Alexandria (maybe Seleucia?) to become a huge_city. It is quite easy and only requires a change to two files.

What no Carthage? How could you forget mighty Carthage! You must at least have them or.....I'll spam your pm box!

[kalkwerk]

First of all, I hate Baktria.
Second, mines are way down in the future.
Third, for all my own versions of every mod I play, I limit the size most cities can become. Making only major cities able to become a large_city and only Rome, Athens, and Alexandria (maybe Seleucia?) to become a huge_city. It is quite easy and only requires a change to two files.

So are you releasing this as a mini-mod?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

So are you releasing this as a mini-mod?

If there is demand for such a minimod, I could.

[kalkwerk]

im interested, but wait for the next build.

[Schatten]

Metropolis Mod from RTR has change most Cities that they dont go over Lv 3...its possible and not hardcoded...same way to Walls that are removed from most Cities....only few really important Cities grow to lv 5 (like Rome,Karthago,Alexandria,Athen and some other) and have Walls.

And Baktria.....every one Campaign in EB Baktria has overrun Selucids and all other in their way easily if you left them alone....around year 200 BC Baktria stays in all Campaigns, except one, around Antiochia and in North at Swaboz/Getei Border....Selukid AI hat never managed even to slow the Baktria AI a bit down.
Same way with Potolomai....they overrun in 8 of 10 Campaigns easily the defense from Selukids and take Antiochia + all other City´s in the Region.
So Selukid have lost everytime v. those both + all the minor´s...they are only Victims for them.

And a other point, the stupid AI (from all factions btw.) has enough Money but build evertime masses of lowes level Units...Levy Hoplites as Greek, Millions of Punic Militia´s as Carthago etc.

Its looks impressive all their full stacks but if you look closer you see a General..1-2 good-medium Units and rest all Militias...you kill such stacks of 2000 or more Soldiers and lost 100 or fewer of you Troops....at one Point i have look at a Carthago City in Iberia for over 60 ig years with spy´s in the Town...Carthago that has had no war in this time has managed to build 1 Bazar and 1 Temple in all this Time in the City (their last in Iberia) and 50 or more Units of Punic Militia´s....simply boring to fight such Enemies.

[Brightblade]

This does happen, sometimes, but in the case of Carthage, when I switched to BI 1.6 they started using all kinds of Liby Phoenician infantry, even some african pikemen and elephants. do not underestimate the BI.exe...

[Kugutsu]

I think whether Bactria becomes a superpower depends a lot on Seleukia. Seleukia only seems to expand east if it is pushed out of the western half of its empire. When I played as Hayasdan, and took all of asia minor, the Seleukids turned around and wiped out Bactria. And Bactria wasnt small at that point. However if the Seleukids maintain a border with the Ptolies, they seem to fight against them by preference, and ignore what is happening in the east.
I have to say, I also look forward to seeing the steppe peoples becoming viable factions. At the moment they are pretty stagnant.

[L.C.Cinna]

In my current Romani campaign the Carthaginians are really tough. Their armies in Spain are a hell to fight. I can only win if I use my best general. All others will get chased off the field no matter how good my troops are. Last turn they attacked Gader where I had a good garrison with an army of

General faction leader with 100something horse, 8 Iberian heavy assault troops, 4 heavy African pikemen, 2 African pikemen, 3 heavy Spearmen, 1 Iberian heavy cav, 1 militia.

Impossible to defend no matter what you try. They kill everything in their way.
They have 2 more fullstacks in Iberia which are a bit weaker but still something close to this. I really have to use my best general and run around inspiring my troops otherwise those Carthies slaughter them. So I'd say AI recruitment seems very good in my current campaign.

[Schatten]

In my current Romani campaign the Carthaginians are really tough. Their armies in Spain are a hell to fight. I can only win if I use my best general. All others will get chased off the field no matter how good my troops are. Last turn they attacked Gader where I had a good garrison with an army of

General faction leader with 100something horse, 8 Iberian heavy assault troops, 4 heavy African pikemen, 2 African pikemen, 3 heavy Spearmen, 1 Iberian heavy cav, 1 militia.

Impossible to defend no matter what you try. They kill everything in their way.
They have 2 more fullstacks in Iberia which are a bit weaker but still something close to this. I really have to use my best general and run around inspiring my troops otherwise those Carthies slaughter them. So I'd say AI recruitment seems very good in my current campaign.

BI.exe or normal 1.5?
And if Ai has a City with good Barracks so its build good Troops...but if they conquer a City so only few times Ai has build good Barracks, much ofter they stay at basic level and build mass of Militias.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Metropolis Mod from RTR has change most Cities that they dont go over Lv 3...its possible and not hardcoded...same way to Walls that are removed from most Cities....only few really important Cities grow to lv 5 (like Rome,Karthago,Alexandria,Athen and some other) and have Walls.

And Baktria.....every one Campaign in EB Baktria has overrun Selucids and all other in their way easily if you left them alone....around year 200 BC Baktria stays in all Campaigns, except one, around Antiochia and in North at Swaboz/Getei Border....Selukid AI hat never managed even to slow the Baktria AI a bit down.
Same way with Potolomai....they overrun in 8 of 10 Campaigns easily the defense from Selukids and take Antiochia + all other City´s in the Region.
So Selukid have lost everytime v. those both + all the minor´s...they are only Victims for them.

First, what is the main advantage to having fewer huge cities, is that it slows down factions that have more cities, in that they can't produce as many elite/stronger troops?

Regarding the Selukids, I also have seen them often swallowed by the Potolomai, is this partly due to the Selukids being often attacked by multiple factions and been low on resources?
If this is'nt the issue, would perphaps stronger starting forces in certain cities for the Selukids somewhat redress the balance around the Antiochia coastal area? It would be nice if certain areas weren't so predictable.

[kalkwerk]

The advantage would be that not all regions make you silly rich.

Also its to me a question of game atmosphere. It just doesnt feel right that some desert oase has the same size as Rome. I would like to see the potential to be only in the cities which historically developed to metropoles:
Rome, Carthage, Anthioce, Alexandria, Byzantium, Syracuse, perhaps Athens, although it in our time frame really couldnt compete with those other cities in terms of inhabitants.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The advantage would be that not all regions make you silly rich.

Also its to me a question of game atmosphere. It just doesnt feel right that some desert oase has the same size as Rome. I would like to see the potential to be only in the cities which historically developed to metropoles:
Rome, Carthage, Anthioce, Alexandria, Byzantium, Syracuse, perhaps Athens, although it in our time frame really couldnt compete with those other cities in terms of inhabitants.

That would require a mojor re-working of the MIC structure, since with the current system elite troops would be restricted to those five cities.

Try to think of Huge Cities as not "Huge" just bigger than everything else. Also you'd be surprised what a desert oasis can turn into with wells, irrigation and good roads.

[Orb]

The advantage would be that not all regions make you silly rich.

Also its to me a question of game atmosphere. It just doesnt feel right that some desert oase has the same size as Rome. I would like to see the potential to be only in the cities which historically developed to metropoles:
Rome, Carthage, Anthioce, Alexandria, Byzantium, Syracuse, perhaps Athens, although it in our time frame really couldnt compete with those other cities in terms of inhabitants.

Well, imagine that in 240 BC Rome was stormed and crunched by the Aedui, then imagine that the Aedui judge has taken slaves from all over the world back to his capital, he's set up extra farming systems and welfare projects in Bibracte.

Your suggestion would make the huge cities predestined, and not go with the alternate history idea of EB. I suspect it's also hardcoded.

[kalkwerk]

Well as correctly pointed out there are rtr mods which have this feature.

The argument that it will predestine history is imho actually nothing but silly. If thats the line of argument there are so many other features which predestine history in this mod. Thats not really the issue here.

[Zarax]

Well, by playing with farming levels you can achieve a lot, if you put a lower one in most cities you could still develop them but only through careful development and not by just letting them alone...

[kalkwerk]

Well I guess such an approach might be a good solution.

By the way, have you ever considered using something like the village system from N&M-mod?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There is not much of a desire from what I've seen among members to institute a system that predetermines which cities will reach certain city levels. We do have basic farming levels for each province that ensures some will not ever reach huge sizes. Population growth will be reduced in future builds (not so much with 0.81) though - we have a number of guys working on that right now.

[kalkwerk]

There is not much of a desire from what I've seen among members to institute a system that predetermines which cities will reach certain city levels.

Thats why a mini-mod like it was done for RTR would be just the right thing.