Rank Bonus

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Do you think the rank of a unit (how many lines of men there are out there in the unit formation) matters in MTW2?

In the original MTW, we got rank bonuses.

When too identical units fought (fma vs fma for example) 4 rank one would beat 3 or 5 rank one because 4 rank was the ideal. No such thing in MTW2 I guess. Or its effect is way too subtle. No?

[Stig]

Well depends on what you want, say every 'x' is a men.

If I line up like this:
xx
xx
xx
xx
xx
xx
xx
xx
A cav charge will be very difficult to break the entire unit, as it has to go a very long way. But then you will have trouble in fighting, as less men are fighting at the same time

If you line up like this
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
A cav charge (or strong unit charge) will easely breakthrough and massacre your units, but you will have more men fighting at the same time, doing more damage at your opponent.

Next to that I always like a thin rank for cav, like this:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
As only the first line of cav does real damage, so the more men in front the better.


It's what you personally like I guess, tho I prefer something like 6x4, a little bit wider then deeper:
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx

[Wolf_Kyolic]

When I play MTW2 I do not see any difference between

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

and

xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx

They both do the same.

[Stig]

Well they do something different. It's hard for units to get through to the front of the battle, so less units of you are attacking, if the opponent has more units attacking he will kill more units for less of his.
The difference however is marginal, maybe 5% of all your kills take advantage of being lined up better then your opponents. So it doesn't really matter, but could be important at some moments.
Next to that, if you line up all your units wide like this:
xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx
And I line up deep like this:
xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx
xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx
You have a great change of encircling me, and thus slaughtering me

[Lavos]

I for some unknown reason like my peasants like this:

xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx

[Dionysus9]

Stig, I know you are trying to be helpful but I think you did not quite answer Kyolics question. Kyolic is talking about a specific type of bonus that made men in the front rank fight better if there were several rows of men (in the same unit) behind them. It was something like "+1 defense per rank, capped at 3" I cant recall exactly.

He's not talking about whether cav penetrates the unit, or how many men are engaged (which also effects fatigue [now minimally]), or the morale effects of being surrounded-- he's talking about whether there is a numerical combat bonus given to each man in a unit based on the number of ranks

I have not conducted any testing looking for a rank bonus. I've played a few games though, and tried some units in different depths. As far as I can tell there is not a rank bonus in m2tw, except for possibly for phalanx units (pikes). Maybe its just my imagination but my pikes seem to defend better in ranks of 3 than ranks of 2. This is an impression formed in the heat of battle so it may not hold up under testing.

It would make sense for pikes to get a rank bonus--especially when in spear wall mode. The whole idea of the spear wall is that it is a multi-rank manuever-- concentrating several ranks of spears in a front-facing wall.

It would not be too difficult to test in MP 1v1s with a friend, one player taking pikes and parking them in a spear wall 4 ranks deep while the other guy charges them with some decent swords 2 ranks deep. Repeat 10 times. Keep track of # kills as well as duration. Then try it with pikes 2 ranks deep. Repeat 10 times. Compare results.

Kind of a boring way to spend a few hours online-- but it would be nice to know whether the rank bonus still exists.

[Stig]

Stig, I know you are trying to be helpful but I think you did not quite answer Kyolics question.

Yes I know, I also know the rank bonus is gone

If I'm correct units in MTW fought as whole units:
The unit would stand infront of the other and do damage
Now in MTW2 every single man is an individual so he does damage.
That means any rank bonus is gone as it's changed into what I explained, because it should do the same (but the effect might be less).

Ofcourse I don't have MTW and what I know of it, I heard of other players, and I believed someone once mentioned that units were threated as units, not as every man individually. Could be mistaking tho

edit: Oh I did make a mistake I meant that now every man is taken individually, and back then every unit was taken as a unit. They wouldn't stand in front of eachother, you would see them fighting individually.

[CBR]

The STW/MTW engine use individual fighting like the RTW/M2TW engine. But weapon length is only an indirect factor in the old engine and that was added by using the rank bonuses.

Since several ranks of pikes can potientially reach an enemy, there is still an advantage in using formations of 3+ ranks in M2TW.


CBR

[ElmarkOFear]

I would say after playing for a bit that the rank bonus isn't as much about morale, than fighting success. Ranks seem to only have an effect on long pike units since, as CBR pointed out, you have more pikes fighting at once.

I do not think there is much of a difference in how many ranks you use, except in M2TW the wider your formation, the more men you will have fighting at once, which DOES help you win. The wider the better when fighting, except for Pikes and I guess for spears as well, but spears are too weak to tell right now. Maybe after the patch.