Holy Crises or Papal Problem?

**agvkrioni** · 01-29-2007, 01:32

Yeah I started as Italy and my main goal was to unite the peninsula. I took over Rome and the Papal States but the Pop came back about 40 years or so later (I don't really know, I know the year he comes back is anywhere from 1143 to 1146). His army is usually 2800-4500 strong depending on how many states he tries to take.

If he only goes for one state, the army is usually 2800+ units. Now I can do a mad scramble starting at my last save til the time he comes and amass usually around 2900 forces or more. It always seems that no matter how many forces he has in one state, I can do about 200-700 more. Doesn't matter though, no matter how many forces I have, even if I use my highest valor princess and my one general with 5 stars, the pope always defeats me.

I always do autobattle because I haven't really mastered even the most novice parts of manual battle.

Helps me, oh Lord, helps me.

**agvkrioni** · 01-29-2007, 01:37

EDIT: When I said that I use my "highest valor princess", I meant to type, "highest valor princes". And those princes are only 3 stars.

**caravel** · 01-29-2007, 01:51

Welcome, agvkrioni, to the .org.

The Pope always comes back, there's nothing much you can do about it. you'll have to either keep sufficient armies in the Papal States and Rome or Just avoid him. Wiping him out is actually a bad idea. The Pope as he is at the start of the game is not too dangerous. He trains poor units and is never a threat, which is why it's best to leave him alone. If you are going to attack him, take Rome and let him retreat to the Papal States. Then leave him there till the end of the campaign.

I'm not sure why this thread is here in this forum, it should be in the Main Hall.

**bamff** · 01-29-2007, 07:48

There was a really good thread on dealing with His Holiness.....but I can't for the life of me locate it. From memory, Macsen Rufus had an interesting way of keeping a lid on the Papacy...

There is this thread in the MTW library with some similar info to the thread I was thinking of:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=24901

Hope that is of some help, agvkrioni

**macsen rufus** · 01-31-2007, 13:46

Hmm, what? My ears are burning... who's talking about me, huh?

Hi Bamff

Here's the "pope on a rope" strategy Bamff mentioned, hope it helps!

In my current game I have a very powerful Pope, but I'm playing as the Crusader States in XL, so to role-play, I've had a rule on "no excommunications" -- hence I've not used the usually strategy against the Pope, or attacked any other catholics unless excommunicated. Papal lands stretch from Lorraine down to Naples, the biggest I've seen that faction get. We're at showdown stage, and the Pope has me to the east, the English to the west, and there are a couple of tiny factions left huddled on islands (Sicilians in Malta - no port!, Byz in Rhodes). The Poles have a couple of provinces left, isolated from each other and both sandwiched between me and the English. I'm REALLY hoping the English will attack the Poles or Sicilians so the Pope can do his excomm magic, but they've just attacked me instead. Down goes my trade (major customer was the English!), and they've just thrown 9000 men at me in Carpathia. I only have 2800, but it is a bridge battle, currently on pause.... just hoping there's no power cuts before I get home from work

I've just about beaten them back. But I could really do with them getting excommunicated!

**Adrian II** · 01-31-2007, 13:54

Originally Posted by macsen rufus 'Pope on a Rope' strategy

This gave me an auto ceasefire, and the Pope was left with a useless army that cost more in upkeep than his territory could supply in income. He can never build ANYTHING else ever again

Not even a border fort, which means I can afford to leave a Grand Inquisitor and Assassin (now up to 6*) and spy on permanent duty in the Papal States.

Brilliant!

I already used to keep His Holiness in a reservation in Rome or the Papal States to prevent (1) his sudden re-emergence, and (2) lengthy ex-communication (I would kill him in battle or through an Assassin). But preventing him from even building anything is a nice improvement.

Good thinking.

**caravel** · 01-31-2007, 14:04

The Papacy in Lorraine??? I've never seen them that far. The furthest I've ever seen the papacy is Tuscany, Serbia and Malta, and to be honest that was mostly in Vanilla MTW v1.0. I actually find that wiping him out makes him return either much more challenging, or economically crippled due to the huge support costs of his new army. The very best place I've ever seen the pope was in Malta. The Sicilians had died out leaving only a rebel spearman garisson there. The Pope, having built enough ships invaded, the following year. The next year I was straight into Rome and the Papal States, and sunk all of his ships leaving the Pope Isolated in Malta, with a sizeable force, no border forts, a negative bank balance and no escape. Lucky.

**Enigma13** · 02-02-2007, 00:00

I often play as Italy so I have never really seen the Papacy excel (mostly due to my smothering them). I always employ the strategy of taking Rome as soon as I have the strength and then letting the Papacy whither in the Papal States. I try to time that assault so that either my Doge or his Holiness is of an advanced age and any excommunication will not last long.

After I have Rome I try to play nice with the Pope the rest of the campaign. He usually is so weakened and has so little income that he will just quietly go along authorizing crusades. I try to do my expansion against fellow Catholics in waves that always coincide with an old Pope or an old Doge. My current Italian campaign is probably my last. I am currently working on a modest mod that will give me plenty of new factions to play with for a while. Included will be a playable pagan Lithuania that should be fun to play with so that I don't have to worry about the Pope (at least when I play an early or high game).

**Sensei Warrior** · 02-02-2007, 01:01

I managed to groom a Papal Superpower once.

I saw the Pope become a Superpower in a earlier Campaign I was playing as the English. As the English I had an annoying habit of being excommed so I took care of it the old fashioned way, I conquered the Pope.

Then I got the dubiously smart idea of continuously bashing the remergence. I started teching up Rome and the Papal Estates. I had numeruous stacks of armies there to greet the Pope when he reared his ugly little head. This was great for a long while, I stopped more than a few attempted comebacks and everything was going well until ...

You guessed it, I lost a battle. The Pope gained a foothold, I was excommed, and banished from the 2 Provences. Oh well, I figured I'd leave the Pope alone for a bit as my King was old and due to break a hip. Italy was excommed for something, and the Pope took over the Italian States, and then Sicily, and then parts of the HRE. The Pope turned into a war machine. I pulled the plug on the game frustrated with the Pope's attacks and my continual state of excommunication.

I accidentally created that monster. The next campaign I played was as the Turks, and I did it again. I conquered the Papacy. Waited for a militarily large remergence. Then when I thought it would work abandoned the teched up Provences. The Pope played it cool all the way up to the excomm of a neighboring faction. Once that happened, the Pope attacked and never stopped. I never finished the campaign (comp probs), but he was pretty big when it ended.

I think the mix of lots o tech, units, and a dash of excomm = one warhawk of a Pope. Oh and all of this happened with MTW/VI.

**EatYerGreens** · 02-17-2007, 23:19

Thanks for the welcomes.

No-one seems to have addressed this point yet...

Originally Posted by agvkrioni

I always do autobattle because I haven't really mastered even the most novice parts of manual battle.

I'm going to assume that you meant the user-interface aspects, how to make units do what you want them to?

If so, then all you need to do is go to the Battle Tutorial menu option and the game will take you through a series of basic unit 'drills', where you can concentrate on what the buttons and mouse clicks achieve, without having to worry about enemy forces on the field.

After that, have a few goes at the "Quick Battle" option, until you're happy with the attack/missile controls.

EYG

**Adrian II** · 02-18-2007, 17:02

Yep, it's EatYerGreens. The hair proves it...

I can't imagine playing M:TW without commanding my own battles, it's more than half the fun. The other half is GA. Glorious Achievements and manual battles are the heart and soul of M:TW.

Only last month we had a member who complained that he sucked at Expert mode campaigns. We gave him some tips, encouraged him to get started and now he is a fine strategist, a Master of the Turtle.

For your own good, agvkrioni, stop fooling around and mount that horse.

**macsen rufus** · 02-19-2007, 13:06

Harking back to the "pope-on-a-rope" strategy, I've just reloaded that Genoese campaign (I was trying to load Hellenic TW but hit the wrong icon, then got sucked into an old game

) and have spotted a potential fly in the ointment. It seems each time a new Pope comes along, one of the existing units gets "elected". Which means, of course, that his support costs are decreasing (and so is the loyalty). The more Popes you burn or assassinate, the more likely he will get back into a positive cashflow and be able to start rebuilding or retraining. In this Genoese campaign, he now has an income of 250 or so, and support costs look to be around 180. Not a huge profit, but he may be able to save up for a watch tower and border fort, in which case my spy and assassin will have to get out PDQ. What I don't know, though, is how much debt he has to pay off from all those turns when the costs outstripped his income. Must be a fair packet... (I could check with -ian, I guess...) The other thing I don't get is why he hasn't assigned the governorship? He has some worthwhile candidates available, and being so cash-strapped you'd expect that to be a priority. But then the AI can do some dumb things with titles and offices (like the one-province factions that give the chancellor title to someone other than the governor, so the acumen boost is wasted).

**Don Esteban** · 02-21-2007, 12:16

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Harking back to the "pope-on-a-rope" strategy, I've just reloaded that Genoese campaign (I was trying to load Hellenic TW but hit the wrong icon, then got sucked into an old game

) and have spotted a potential fly in the ointment. It seems each time a new Pope comes along, one of the existing units gets "elected". Which means, of course, that his support costs are decreasing (and so is the loyalty). The more Popes you burn or assassinate, the more likely he will get back into a positive cashflow and be able to start rebuilding or retraining. In this Genoese campaign, he now has an income of 250 or so, and support costs look to be around 180. Not a huge profit, but he may be able to save up for a watch tower and border fort, in which case my spy and assassin will have to get out PDQ. What I don't know, though, is how much debt he has to pay off from all those turns when the costs outstripped his income. Must be a fair packet... (I could check with -ian, I guess...) The other thing I don't get is why he hasn't assigned the governorship? He has some worthwhile candidates available, and being so cash-strapped you'd expect that to be a priority. But then the AI can do some dumb things with titles and offices (like the one-province factions that give the chancellor title to someone other than the governor, so the acumen boost is wasted).

Actually i'm not sure this is a serious flaw as after a re-emergence the papacy usually has so many usless units to support that it would take ages for them to get back in profit - this is why I always bottle them up after one re-emergence rather than right at the beginning.