Why is Genarlow Wilson in prison?

[Don Corleone]

Look, it's pretty straightforward. They said Tracy was sober. So, age concerns aside, she would theoretically be abe to give consent. But Michelle was drunk, to the point that even the article, which is an editorial in long form to free Genarlow Wilson, admits that the girl awoke terrified, unaware and immediately started claiming she hadn't consented. That's rape, regardless of how old she or her partners are.

Now, I personally would argue that the delta in age should be taken into account, but the law itself doesn't recognize it, and from the sounds of it, deliberately so. So in the eyes of the law (Georgia law, that is), being less than 16 precludes Tracy from giving informed consent either.

I think the following makes sense:

-Female less than 12: Is automatically sexual assault.
-Female between 12 and 18: If male is within 3 years, not assualt, otherwise, it is.
-Female >18: Can give informed consent, regardless of age.

However, informed consent in either the middle or the last statement assumes the person is in control of their faculties. Inebriation, duress, limited mental faculty for other reasons... all of these remove the consent question and move the act into the realm of sexual assault. Coma patients don't say no either, but do we want to give people the right to have sex with them?

As for the question of being a registered child molester or what have you, first of all, I think you should be registered for life for any sexual offense. But if we're going to limit it to attacks on minors, both the first and the second should apply. A 17 year old boy having sex with a 12 year old girl SHOULD be treated like a child molester.... There's a world of difference between the 2.

[Xiahou]

my fault I misread the part about charges - he was charged with rape but was found not guilty - it was the blow job with tracy that landed him 10 years however so my point stands...

Right, and I can see where the punishment for that might seem extreme. Without knowing the details of how the case unfolded, I can't see how he managed to get off of a rape/sexual assault charge. If a girl is completely inebriated she doesn't have to say "no" in order for it to be considered rape based on my understanding.

I would guess that the jury thought they were cutting him a break by finding him guilty of the seemingly lesser charge instead of rape. But I could be completely wrong on that- we dont know all the details.

[Xiahou]

I think the following makes sense:

-Female less than 12: Is automatically sexual assault.
-Female between 12 and 18: If male is within 3 years, not assualt, otherwise, it is.
-Female >18: Can give informed consent, regardless of age.

You know, I think I understand the sentiment there- but logically it doesn't make sense. If a girl between 12-18 can't responsibly give consent for sex, what does the age difference between her and the partner matter?

I certainly agree that a 40yr old having sex with a 13yr old is utterly disgusting and deplorable, but if she can't give informed consent to the 40yr old, how can she give it to a 16yr old?

[doc_bean]

This is BS, the parents didn't want to or couldn't control their daughter and now they've found someone else to blame instead of calling her on her ****.

Yeah, what the guy did was wrong but who hasn't gotten a girl drunk so he could sleep with her ? She was drinking, she was partying, don't expect me to believe she didn't expect sex. Why did her parents allow her to stay away all night ? Why was she able to start drinking in the afternoon ? If the guy is charged with 'rape' then surely they should be charged with criminal neglect.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, what the guy did was wrong but who hasn't gotten a girl drunk so he could sleep with her ? She was drinking, she was partying, don't expect me to believe she didn't expect sex. Why did her parents allow her to stay away all night ? Why was she able to start drinking in the afternoon ? If the guy is charged with 'rape' then surely they should be charged with criminal neglect.

ME! It was 1986 when I was Genarlow Wilson's age, the law was no where near as clear on this matter as it is now, and even then I knew this was rape. I purposely only dated girls my own age or older in high school for this very reason, and I purposely did not engage in any activity when one of my girlfriends had had too much to drink.

Plying somebody with alcohol to break down their ability to discern and make decisions is rape. Plain and simple.

[Fragony]

Plying somebody with alcohol to break down their ability to discern and make decisions is rape. Plain and simple.

I would agree if the difference in age was larger, but a 17 year old and a 15 year old I dunno. Where did they get the alcohol in the first place, I heard USA laws are pretty strict on that, that would be the real offender. A 17 year old is just a kid.

[doc_bean]

Plying somebody with alcohol to break down their ability to discern and make decisions is rape. Plain and simple.

Meh, you're responsible for your actions, even if you're drunk, you shouldn't have gotten drunk in the first place. What's next ? Drunk drivers are just victims ?

It's entirely different when you're lacing drinks or sleeping with someone on the verge of passing out, of course.

EDIT: and I also agree with Fragony, age and age difference matter, getting minors drunk is a no-no, but then the guy was a minor himself.

[Dutch_guy]

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EDIT: and I also agree with Fragony, age and age difference matter, getting minors drunk is a no-no, but then the guy was a minor himself.

Plus, she did go to the party drunk and brought a sleeping bag...

I daresay she was able to add one and one together, her sober friend was, it seems.

[Xiahou]

Plus, she did go to the party drunk and brought a sleeping bag...

I daresay she was able to add one and one together, her sober friend was, it seems.

Because if you bring a sleeping bag to a party, you're obviously looking to get gang banged.

Not to say she wasn't terribly irresponsible- she was. But, taking advantage of someone sexually because they are inebriated is pretty low imo. And you're certainly putting yourself at risk of a rape charge once she sobers up. She may have behaved badly, she may have bad parents, but that still doesn't change the fact that what he did was inappropriate.

[Kralizec]

Meh, you're responsible for your actions, even if you're drunk, you shouldn't have gotten drunk in the first place. What's next ? Drunk drivers are just victims ?

Slight difference. Drunk drivers cause misschief to others. Drunk girls are taken advantage of. This sort of stuff should be looked at case by case, since the supposed "rapists" in this case were intoxicated themselves I wouldn't put all the blame on them.

Cases like this also prove why mandatory prison sentences suck.

[Dutch_guy]

Because if you bring a sleeping bag to a party, you're obviously looking to get gang banged.

Not at all, I'm simply quite surprised she had the intention of staying the night and drinking heavily before leaving to said night. She put herself, and the other guys for that matter, in quite a tough and vulnerable position. She acted irresponsibly, yes the guys all the same, but she's not doing time for it.

[Don Corleone]

Not at all, I'm simply quite surprised she had the intention of staying the night and drinking heavily before leaving to said night. She put herself, and the other guys for that matter, in quite a tough and vulnerable position. She acted irresponsibly, yes the guys all the same, but she's not doing time for it.

She was 15 years old. If you want to talk about judgement, let's talk about 6 guys, five of whom with rapsheets, renting 2 hotel rooms, putting up a video camera, then proceeding to supply alchohol and pot to a girl younger than they, getting her drunk/high beyond the point of recall, then engaging in group sex acts with her, video-taping the entire affair.

Look, at the end of the day, I think we all know these guys knew what they were doing was scummy. They just thought they could get away with it. Turns out, the local DA has a spine and decided to actually believe the victim for once.

Should the girl have showed up to a party having drank some cognac already? Should she have packed an overnight bag? No. But I did attend several parties in my youth where somebody's parents were out of town, we all spent the night and had some drinks. Nobody got raped in the process. It's not just boys being boys. These guys planned this out, the video camera is proof of that.

[doc_bean]

Because if you bring a sleeping bag to a party, you're obviously looking to get gang banged.

Err...I thought this was about a blowjob ?

As long as she was 'willing' (not forced or virtually unconscious) this is 'date rape' at most (if even that, since that still usually involves an element of pressure), let's save the word rape for where it actually applies.

[doc_bean]

She was 15 years old. If you want to talk about judgement, let's talk about 6 guys, five of whom with rapsheets, renting 2 hotel rooms, putting up a video camera, then proceeding to supply alchohol and pot to a girl younger than they, getting her drunk/high beyond the point of recall, then engaging in group sex acts with her, video-taping the entire affair.

Look, at the end of the day, I think we all know these guys knew what they were doing was scummy. They just thought they could get away with it. Turns out, the local DA has a spine and decided to actually believe the victim for once.

Should the girl have showed up to a party having drank some cognac already? Should she have packed an overnight bag? No. But I did attend several parties in my youth where somebody's parents were out of town, we all spent the night and had some drinks. Nobody got raped in the process. It's not just boys being boys. These guys planned this out, the video camera is proof of that.

Hmm perhaps I should read the article....

UPDATE:

As for Tracy, she did not drink or smoke that night, but willingly performed oral sex on several of the guys, practically one after the other, as the telltale videotape showed. Tracy had not wanted to press charges and was as surprised as the boys that police showed up at the hotel that New Year’s morning.

Right, so this guy is in prison (te sentence was about the blow job, NOT about what he did with the other girl) because a sober, consenting girl gave him a BJ. Justice for all !

As for the other girl: The entire thing sounded like a preplanned sex party (they do happen), I think she just had regrets after the facts. The guys probably didn't even realize they were pressuring her. Was it wrong to have a 15y old at their sex party? Sure. Was it child molestation ? **** no.

[Dutch_guy]

Should the girl have showed up to a party having drank some cognac already? Should she have packed an overnight bag? No.

Aye, couldn't agree more.

Look, I'm not saying the boys should be applauded for their actions, heck 5 of the 6 had criminal records already. I;m merely stating that I just can't comprehend why this girl did this, going to that party drunk, knowing tons of teens, booz and yes, even drugs, would be there. Did she deserve this, not at all. But did this girl show any sign of intelligence, even before getting drunk ? Well, in my book that would be a no, she went to that party after all. The boys should be punished, all the more severely for already having a record. However, 10 years for a record-less boy who'll be a marked man for the rest of his still long life just doesn't feel right in my book.

[Don Corleone]

Aye, couldn't agree more.

Look, I'm not saying the boys should be applauded for their actions, heck 5 of the 6 had criminal records already. I;m merely stating that I just can't comprehend why this girl did this, going to that party drunk, knowing tons of teens, booz and yes, even drugs, would be there. Did she deserve this, not at all. But did this girl show any sign of intelligence, even before getting drunk ? Well, in my book that would be a no, she went to that party after all. The boys should be punished, all the more severely for already having a record. However, 10 years for a record-less boy who'll be a marked man for the rest of his still long life just doesn't feel right in my book.

I agree with you, ten years is excessive, for this one guy only (the other 5, with records, it's a shame they didn't get it). The good news is that with the way the American criminal incarceration system works, that means he'll do about 2 1/2 years, then be released on parole.

I agree the girl made some poor decisions. I also agree with Doc that the girl's mother ought to be up on charges (I think it was Doc Bean that suggested that).

But I disagree that somehow, there's an excuse for the boys' behavior, based on the fact that the girl had already had a glass of cognac (the article didn't say she showed up drunk, it said she had had something to drink before going to the party). What's more, we're not getting the whole story. It sounds like there was a party with a lot of people (including Michelle's friend Natasha). At some point, the regular party was whittled down to the six defendants and the two girls, one of whom doesn't have any recollection of the events that were videotaped. Also, Tracy was supposedly sober. Why didn't the article state she was claiming that Michelle had consented (in some form)? Because either Michelle didn't consent and Tracy knew that, or she wasn't present (she was in the other hotel room). For all we know, Michelle passed out. Based on her recollection of events, she was at least in a blackout. That's rape.

[doc_bean]

But I disagree that somehow, there's an excuse for the boys' behavior,based on the fact that the girl had already had a glass of cognac (the article didn't say she showed up drunk, it said she had had something to drink before going to the party). What's more, we're not getting the whole story. It sounds like there was a party with a lot of people (including Michelle's friend Natasha). At some point, the regular party was whittled down to the six defendants and the two girls, one of whom doesn't have any recollection of the events that were videotaped. For all we know, she passed out. Based on her recollection of events, she was at least in a blackout. That's rape.

Well, I agree with you here, at least I think so. The article doesn't have the whole story: what was on the tape ? the blowjobs: yes, but they were voluntary. Unless I missed something important (I'm getting drunk here) there was nothing in the article about the state of Michelle (conscious ? 'Actively' having sex or just lying there ?).

The fact that she has had a few drinks beforehand proves nothing of course, but there are a lot of things that can be concluded based on the behaviour of her and her friend, if I was a juror I'd definately want to hear more about those. then again, their only job was to say he'd gotten a blowjob, you can't blame them for the verdict.

[Don Corleone]

It's in the first paragraph. They have a narrative of Michelle waking up naked, not knowing where she is, calling her mother to come get her, getting half dressed and noticing the video camera.

[doc_bean]

It's in the first paragraph. They have a narrative of Michelle waking up naked, not knowing where she is, calling her mother to come get her, getting half dressed and noticing the video camera.

Yeah, but so what, I've had black outs before and it's not like I was unconscious (well, I did sleep in my bed) the night before, or could simply say no if i didn't want something.

If she was unconscious or anything close to that (unable to speak, unable to determine what was happening, etc) then it was rape, plain and simple, if she had wild sex and didn't remember, then that's just too bad.

EDIT: also don I don't think 12 year olds should be having sex, if you want to hang on to that age of consent thing, make it 14, with increasing age brackets, so 14+15, 15+17,16+19,17+21,18+none of your business
EDIT 2: and why are you only interested in protecting women ???

[rory_20_uk]

The specific case there appears to have been premeditated action on the part of the men. Whilst the females have to take some responsibility (either them or their parents) it was set up to prey on the idiots.

But in the generalities, I find it's "funny" that whilst a female can get drunk to the point of not bieng able to consent, why is this not possible with the male? Can't he be so drunk he is not aware of his actions either?

If either gender goes to a party and wants to remain in control then don't drink too much! It's not rocket science - and how young do you have to be before you don't know what alcohol does?

One can say that there is nore responsibility on the part of females. Only if one assumes that they are more concerned about who they sleep with. Else it can be said that those that are concerned be careful, and those who really don't care who or what they wake up next to can do as they wish.

Age differences... meet a girl at a nightclub. Over 18s only Do you still need to check her driver's license just to make sure - and ensure that you remain sober enough through the entire night to do this? So IMO it is more the place where the meeting happens that exact ages. Outside a school gate the onus is on the older party to prove innocence. At an over 18 event the young "innocent" can first explain what the hell s/he was doing there.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, but so what, I've had black outs before and it's not like I was unconscious (well, I did sleep in my bed) the night before, or could simply say no if i didn't want something.

If she was unconscious or anything close to that (unable to speak, unable to determine what was happening, etc) then it was rape, plain and simple, if she had wild sex and didn't remember, then that's just too bad.

She's 15 years old. 6 guys who are older than her get her drunk enough that she goes into a blackout and proceed to film themselves having sex with her and you say it's just too bad? If that attitude is prevalent over there, my daughter isn't visiting Europe until she's 30, and then with an armed escort.

[Don Corleone]

As for Rory's point, it's actually a very good one. There is a bias in the legal system (at least the American one) against men in sexual assault and domestic violence cases. Yes, men can get to be so drunk that they can no longer consent either. But there's a difference between consenting and initiating, the active partner and the passive partner if you will. If two adults get sufficiently drunk that neither is aware of their surroundings any longer, if sex occurs, I would look to the inititater first, not necessarily the male. The law pretty much assumes this is always the man, though we all know that's clearly not the case.

[doc_bean]

She's 15 years old. 6 guys who are older than her get her drunk enough that she goes into a blackout and proceed to film themselves having sex with her and you say it's just too bad?

Now you assume the blackout preceded the sex, sometimes you can know perfectly well what you're doing (well, within limits) but your memory just fails you. I'd like to see the tape before passing judgement, if she was just lying there then it might be rape, if she was 'actively' having sex then I think calling it rape is a bit extreme. Again, blanket statements based on the limited information we have are hard to make.

If that attitude is prevalent over there, my daughter isn't visiting Europe until she's 30, and then with an armed escort.

Yeah, women are responsible for their actions here. Most of them don't get totally wasted, or keep friends around when they do. Of course, I've known a few women who knew they got horny as hell when drunk and didn't care either way.

Honestly we're not that bad, but are laws aren't as biased towards women, so they've got to be a little more careful.

EDIT;: and I never said what the guys did wasn't wrong...

[Don Corleone]

Now you assume the blackout preceded the sex, sometimes you can know perfectly well what you're doing (well, within limits) but your memory just fails you. I'd like to see the tape before passing judgement, if she was just lying there then it might be rape, if she was 'actively' having sex then I think calling it rape is a bit extreme. Again, blanket statements based on the limited information we have are hard to make.

If that attitude is prevalent over there, my daughter isn't visiting Europe until she's 30, and then with an armed escort

Yeah, women are responsible for their actions here. Most of them don't get totally wasted, or keep friends around when they do. Of course, I've known a few women who knew they got horny as hell when drunk and didn't care either way.

Honestly we're not that bad, but are laws aren't as biased towards women, so they've got to be a little more careful.

My apologies, that crack was out of line. I do agree that the girl made some terrible decisions, and her parents are criminally negligent (if I was the judge, I would have ordered foster care in this whole process). But I just don't think any of that in any way mitigates the behavior of the defendants. If she was incapacitated, and I would say memory-loss level inebriation qualifies, they raped her.... unless of course she initiated the activity with them, in which case she didn't. Somehow, I seriously, seriously doubt it.

[doc_bean]

If she was incapacitated, and I would say memory-loss level inebriation qualifies,

I don't know, I once had a black out when i hadn't even ahd that much to drink, and I had acted pretty normally the night before. Friends of mine have also had blackouts when they really didn't appear that drunk the night before. You're expecting to guys to be able to see the future ?

they raped her.... unless of course she initiated the activity with them, in which case she didn't. Somehow, I seriously, seriously doubt it.

yes, but you're obviously a sexist

I've known more women get freaky when drunk than men.

[Fragony]

I don't know, I once had a black out when i hadn't even ahd that much to drink, and I had acted pretty normally the night before.

Tell me about it, still don't know how I ended up in that ditch with that sour feeling, barely able to make it back home.

[Don Corleone]

I don't know, I once had a black out when i hadn't even ahd that much to drink, and I had acted pretty normally the night before. Friends of mine have also had blackouts when they really didn't appear that drunk the night before. You're expecting to guys to be able to see the future ?

No. I'm expecting them to not act like beasts of the field and demonstrate some compassion and empathy for somebody that is helpless. If they don't know that the woman wants to have sex with them, and would when sober, then they shouldn't be having sex with them.

yes, but you're obviously a sexist

Heehee, that's me... keep 'em all barefoot and pregnant....

I've known more women get freaky when drunk than men.

As have I. And if we were already in a relationship, I thanked my lucky stars. However, I would state that the critical 'first' encounter, where desire and consent may already be on somewhat shaky grounds, clouding the issue with large quantities of alchohol is a BAD idea. How about waiting until the woman sobers up, then see if she really wanted you?

[doc_bean]

No. I'm expecting them to not act like beasts of the field and demonstrate some compassion and empathy for somebody that is helpless. If they don't know that the woman wants to have sex with them, and would when sober, then they shouldn't be having sex with them.

I think that's where we differ in opinion about what happened. I think the guys assumed she wanted it. Especially the guy convicted. He was a popular guy according to the source, why would he try to sleep with someone who didn't want it ? he could have gotten others. I think he honestly assumed she wanted it. Like i said before, until we see the actual video it's hard to judge her condition.
I tend to get anything but passive when I'm drunk, I don't think anyone would assume I was helpless , yet I could have a blackout just the same.

As have I. And if we were already in a relationship, I thanked my lucky stars. However, I would state that the critical 'first' encounter, where desire and consent may already be on somewhat shaky grounds, clouding the issue with large quantities of alchohol is a BAD idea. How about waiting until the woman sobers up, then see if she really wanted you?

Hmm, depends on the situation really. I know some guys who've had a more than a few one night stands and usually there's no damage done, even if they were usually the result of both parties being drunk as hell.

Hey often alcohol solves things, you don't overthink things anymore and you just follow your heart/desires. That's how I finally hooked up with my girlfriend

[yesdachi]

Do you think white kids would have been treated differently?

[doc_bean]

Do you think white kids would have been treated differently?

errr....who is this question directed to ?

The race issue was hardly brought up. Perhaps the case wouldn't have made it to court if he had been white (although frankly, this would be pure speculation) but the debate has mostly centered around whether what he did was rape and if it waranted the sentence (everyone says no to that).

IMO the jury wouldn't have acted differently, their hands were tied.